Repairing estrangement

So many 'sayings'. They can be used in different contexts and mean different things. Reap what you sow, no good deed goes unpunished, the more you do the less you are thought of. Lots more. The odd one I think, is when you are run ragged you often say to yourself, 'no peace for the wicked' . Why on earth do we say, we, ourselves are wicked? ha ha.

I have found there is cause and effect but it doesn’t always work that way. Personally we suffered the cause and effect of other parents on their child. We suffered their consequences. I like the quote of Eugene Peterson
"One of the surprises as we get older, however, is that we come to see that there is no real correlation between the amount of wrong we commit and the amount of pain we experience. An even larger surprise is that very often there is something quite the opposite: We do right and get knocked down. We do the best we are capable of doing, and just as we are reaching out to receive our reward we are hit from the blind side and sent reeling”

It always amazes me that people don't realise that the situation they are in is a result of the decisions they made. I don't mean this about anyone here, but am thinking of a particular relative.

I call it cause and effect. They do incredibly stupid things, then play victim when it goes wrong and have to be helped but never have the self reflection to understand that they caused it. sigh Like children that never grew up.

Thank goodness some of us are the adults to our parents who never grew up or took responsibility in their lives for anything. (It's everyone else's fault but theirs!) I suppose what I'm sowing is patience and helpfulness, hope I reap it from my kids setting a good example but there are no guarantees. Just have to do our best.

Oh and some of them don't want help, they want attention lol

Blue Balou, I’m sorry I missed your post, trying to put my own sorry saga to bed.
Why were you moving closer to your daughter? Was it perhaps because you were getting older and it would be easier with her not far away? Would you have wanted to move there if it wasn’t for her? I think if you look at those question and answers it might put things into perspective. There are those lovely selfless grown up children that have a close bond with their parents and love having them near. I’m afraid there’s a lot that don’t. When it’s a duty it becomes a burden. I would consider what you and your husband want as you age, our children are most of our lives but we are a smaller part of theirs, that’s the sad truth for most of us. I am sure that if you and dh make the move if that’s what you want where you want, your daughter will eventually come round, she sounds as if she is a bit worried you might take over the life she has made, she must be a little insecure perhaps. When you have a partner you are not alone.

Cause and effect is one of the lessons we teach our children as we teach them to take responsibility for themselves and their actions.

It can be learned even without that input from parents as your post demonstrates Onward, where AC take on the 'parental' responsibility of their parents.

As you say whether it's our relationship with our own children or our parents, we can only do our best and we can only hope when it comes to our children, that they learn from the good examples that we show them.

I am not talking about a family where there has been actually been abuse through childhood, but, in general, I do think that along with becoming a "throw away society" with goods, we have also become that with relatives that merely wind us up.

My upbringing wasn't perfect, by any means, I very much doubt my parenting was perfect (who is perfect?), but I was taught that family loyalty, tolerance, consideration, empathy and a sense of duty, towards family, was important.

It's an old fashioned concept now, I suppose, but nothing wrong with that sometimes. Modern thinking isn't always better.

That, yes, elderly parents/grandparents/aunties/uncles can be irritating, needy, pushy, a pest, interfering, or whatever label applied. But, usually, you just dealt with them, when you saw them, in a kindly way.

You considered their feelings.

You perhaps didn't think they were wonderful parents, or wonderful grandparents, or whatevers, in all ways, but you thought they'd done their best, and were still doing their best, as you are doing with your own kids.

Because, as much as so many younger parents think they've got it all lovely, know so much better than our generation managed, what goes around can come around, and it might be that their own children don't actually agree...?

And, if those children have been bought up to see they can just discard anyone that they consider "less than perfect" in the family, then there will be nothing to stop them doing the same.

Some of these ACs seem to mull over their childhoods endlessly, reading the books, listening to the pods, watching the documentaries, and I honestly wonder if it makes them happier. They don't seem to be. ?

As I say, I'm not talking about actual abuse, or really vile behaviour, but with relatives that you just don't like very much, surely just getting on with it can work?

The misery caused by estrangement, unless there are excellent reasons seem to far outweigh any benefits it might bring to anyone.

Gosh I don't see what you see Diamondlily

I don't see people discarding non abusive close family members and those happy family units stand out to me as someone who has never had one.

I don't see AC from non abusive homes commenting on books or podcasts or in self help places, they would probably be pulled up if they did.

I don't see how it's possible to teach a child a close relative can just be discarded, that love is almost hardwired in. I held on for so so long because I loved an abusive person.

No, I think there is no basis really in reality for any of that.

I've seen and heard it said many times DiamondLily that this throw away society is more than about goods, but about people and relationships.

Love for some, no longer seems to be enough to transcend the frailty and imperfections that we all carry.

Excellent post.

I can see why that idea would bring some strange sort of comfort I suppose but it's an incredibly bleak outlook

VioletSky

Gosh I don't see what you see Diamondlily

I don't see people discarding non abusive close family members and those happy family units stand out to me as someone who has never had one.

I don't see AC from non abusive homes commenting on books or podcasts or in self help places, they would probably be pulled up if they did.

I don't see how it's possible to teach a child a close relative can just be discarded, that love is almost hardwired in. I held on for so so long because I loved an abusive person.

No, I think there is no basis really in reality for any of that.

I did make it very clear that I wasn't talking about those that had suffered childhood abuse.

But, unlike you, I have known those that have estranged parents for reasons that have nothing to do with abuse.

Your reality is yours - other people might have a different reality.

I think there is always a reason, whether AC estrange an abusive family member, whether an AC is under the influence of an abusive other or there is some sort of mental health issues involved.

I don't see normal happy families just discarding each other and I don't think it's healthy for anyone to think we have become a society that throws each other away. It's very bleak.

Smileless2012

I've seen and heard it said many times DiamondLily that this throw away society is more than about goods, but about people and relationships.

Love for some, no longer seems to be enough to transcend the frailty and imperfections that we all carry.

Excellent post.

Sad really, and I don't think society is any happier for it.

At least my imperfections are always made clear - my children and DH make sure of that lol ?

Coming at this from a slightly different angle my observation would be that there is possibly a much lower level of tolerance of any behaviours/foibles/human frailties than previously. This can be seen when someone loses their job/is "canceled" for a youthful misdemeanour/careless remark/"youthful joke" etc which is on social media for ever and comes back to haunt them 10/20 years later. So often there seems to be a complete lack of understanding of a youthful teenage mistake, or allowance that that person has grown up/changed etc...no tolerance/ empathy atall!! I don't mean serious stuff just teenage stuff!

In the same way I think that can SOMETIMES translate into the same intolerance, lack of understanding between family members and the extreme reaction of estrangement just like the extreme reaction of someone losing their job.

I am basically talking about apparent societal trends rather than any specific case but it is something I have been thinking about for a while.

Yes it is sad DiamondLily and IMO society is worse off.

Have there ever been normal, happy families? What is normal?
When did it become 'normal' to throw away people and relationships with relatives as you said, that you don't like very much?

Mr. S. and DS do that as well and two our DS is more than happy to mention are, I don't have to say what I'm thinking because it's written all over my face and, I wear my heart on my sleeve. Could be worse.

Indeed Madgran. Social media has made it so easy to drag up something that was said or done years ago that can then be used against them, with no attempt to consider they were younger, or going through a particularly difficult/traumatic time in their lives.

I’m with Violet on this one, you don’t have to have been abused to have had an unhappy childhood, for many of us it’s not a matter of getting rid of your mother because she’s a bit irritating, it’s generally for self preservation, or simply not being able to face any more.
My mother in law was very irritating, but she meant well, and we never had a cross word.
There are many ways to make a child feel unhappy, to feel ashamed, guilty, useless, abnormal, they don’t necessarily need a hand ever raised against them.

I agree Sara that "there are many ways to make a child feel unhappy, to feel ashamed, guilty, useless, abnormal, they don't necessarily need a hand ever raised against them", but not all EAC have ever been made to feel any of those things, but estrange their parents anyway.

I doubt anyone could ever say that their childhood was 100% happy.

I’m with Violet on this one, you don’t have to have been abused to have had an unhappy childhood, for many of us it’s not a matter of getting rid of your mother because she’s a bit irritating, it’s generally for self preservation, or simply not being able to face any more.

I'm not sure anyone was suggesting it was!

Madgran
That was how I read it, not from you.

Smileless
Didn’t mean to offend you, I know your circumstances are different.
But generally, I don’t think people cast off their relatives because they are a bit annoying.

You haven't offended me Sara. This is such an emotive and painful issue for many isn't it and the reasons for estrangement are many and often complex.

Even not being willing or able to provide childcare for GC has been sited as a reason for being estranged or, produces a very real fear that estrangement will be the result if it isn't given.

If people will, or are prepared to estrange for the that reason, who knows what other reasons they may have.

Sara I didn't think you were particularly referring to what I said. We have obviously read people's comments differently as I don't really see that anyone is saying parents are got rid of because they are "a bit irritating"! That is not how I read the comments.

I think estrangement happens for many reasons, and I do think sometimes social changes impact on relationships and how relationships are approached. Smileless example of a GP being unwilling/unable to provide childcare and estrangement being or threatened to be a consequence, is just one example. Taking that example, what causes that I wonder ... irritation?, anger?, selfishness?, entitlement, stress? a way out? straight blackmail? ..... who knows! I imagine the reasons when that happens are different in every case too.

Madgran
I actually know someone who refused full time childcare for her granddaughter, and was estranged by her daughter in law, so I know it happens.
I also know a lot of people who get extremely irritated by a relative, but because they love them, they plough on.
There has to be something else, don’t you think? Unless it pressure from a partner.

Sara1954

I’m with Violet on this one, you don’t have to have been abused to have had an unhappy childhood, for many of us it’s not a matter of getting rid of your mother because she’s a bit irritating, it’s generally for self preservation, or simply not being able to face any more.
My mother in law was very irritating, but she meant well, and we never had a cross word.
There are many ways to make a child feel unhappy, to feel ashamed, guilty, useless, abnormal, they don’t necessarily need a hand ever raised against them.

No, of course, childhood abuse doesn't just involve hitting.

It can be physical, sexual, emotions, neglect or a combination.

But, my post made it clear it wasn't about those that had survived childhood abuse - whatever the type of abuse.