Friendship,advice and support if estrangement has affected your life.

Our posts have crossed I see.

By all means flounce off with your self righteous beliefs and opinions intact. You clearly don't like your opinions being challenged or being asked to actually stop and think before making sweeping generalisations or hasty judgements.

You think you can just pontificate, dish out criticism, cast blame and expect us to just take it lying down. You don't like it when people dare to speak up for themselves or try to show you where you have misjudged them or misunderstood their situation.

Not so humble after all ........

I’m not a poster on these threads but I do read them as I started out when my relationship with my son was rocky. Some of the posters on here I think were supportive when I was going through this, pretty sure Smileless was one.

I understand these threads are public and anyone can post, but it seems that you are lecturing in a professional capacity anonymously, to a support group for people who have been genuinely affected by estrangement. This seems very unprofessional and unethical to me. People should come to therapy on their own violation, not from being hounded and told they are wrong.

Rant over.

You can’t spend your life watching everything you say and do especially with your close friends and family. Iseethruit, you say you have been decades in the business of marriage guidance etc and yet still you are estranged and don’t know why. Everyone on here has tried to get to put things right, get their families to open up and discuss any problems. The silence back was deafening.I gave up on the mind games some time ago, I can’t make sense of nonsense. Your faith is your business and if it helps you that’s good, perhaps you might be better if you look at the site about religion, this one is about estrangement and making a life without our children whatever age they are.

Hope everyone is OK. It appears that this is perhaps not the thread for Icanseethruit, we all know that one size does not fit all.

However for those of us who post regularly and continue to care and support one another this is a perfect fit.

To bring a different approach to the both sides have a role in estrangement, I can see what ISeethruit is saying to a degree.

There is estrangement in my family. That person estranged from me. Do I have a role in it? Well, yes. They didn't like my life choices. They were perfectly normal life choices, btw, and ones I had a right to make that didn't have any negative impact on anyone else who had normal relational flexibility. They were choices that didn't exclude that person but didn't suit what they wanted. Think something like moving an hour away for a more affordable life away from the big city. So yes, my role in the estrangement is making those choices rather than the one the person wanted me to make because it suited them better. But I don't accept any culpability or guilt because the problem isn't my choices, it's their reaction to it. I accept no blame for my role.

Very well put Mandrake.

There's a world of difference between being imperfect and being to blame.

None of us is perfect. The world is full of imperfect families, but most of them are fortunate enough to not suffer estrangement.

To say we all contributed is over-simplistic. There's an inference that if we'd all done a good parenting job, been loving, it wouldn't have happened. That somehow we didn't meet our children's needs 100%. Well, nobody does. The perfect parent doesn't exist. Cannot exist, because if you try and define it, it's impossible. Every style of parenting has its benefits and downfalls. We cannot perfectly prepare our children for an imperfect and ever-changing world.
Are we any less perfect than parents whose children did not strange them? From what I've seen, I strongly doubt that. The reasons are complex and varied.
It doesn't take 2 to tango in the dance of estrangement, it takes many, because partners, peers, online communities, and sometimes even misguided counsellors can all have a negative effect on the relationship between adult child and parent.

Well said Hugshelp . We brought our children up the same and after my husband's death. Both couples where always treated the same by me and my family.

If I was such an awful mom why is it I still have my daughter and family in mine and extended families life.

No parent is perfect . And I know as much as my son and daughter in law are good parents and they cherish my grandson's they are far from perfect parents. But I would never write an email or letter like my son sent me . I could be that would be cruel and I am not nor ever been cruel.

Your last paragraph sums it up perfectly.

Even though some didn't like it we need to get back to thinking of ourselves as DerbyshireLass called us Warrior Queens. Because we keep fighting on no matter what life throws at us. ?

I stopped using the expression "Warrior Queen" on here because it upset some people.

That was never my intention, it was meant as a lighthearted exhortation to help us find inner strength and overcome the difficulties we experience.

It was a metaphor, not a call to use violence. It was about us digging deep within ourselves to find courage, strength and fortitude.

I love history and have always been interested in the role that strong women have played in shaping our nation.

Of course when we think of warrior queens we automatically think of Boudicca and maybe some will think of Queen Elizabeth 1st but there have been many many more strong, independent minded woman who have inspired me.

Not all of them actual royalty, many just ordinary women doing extraordinary things, but all of them succeeding against the odds in what was very much a patriarchal society when the odds were stacked against them.

We only have to think about the suffragettes. Now they were warrior queens - to whom women today owe a huge debt of gratitude.

So at the risk of giving offence, I still view myself (and all of the women here) as a WQ.s.

You are all stronger than you think.

I have learned so much this last year, since I was estranged.

I knew I was strong and independent minded. I have always been "Capable Kate", practical and resilient. Character traits which stood me in good stead when my husband pgot sick and ended up as a quadriplegic. That's when I really grew a backbone, that's when I was forged in steel. It was that or go under.

But as traumatic as that experience was, even that didn't prepare me for the betrayal that lay ahead. Estrangement, even though it was temporary, really did knock me for six, as it has done for so many of us.

Quite simply estrangement knocks the stuffing out of us. And, even though I am more or less reconciled with my son (or what passes for reconciliation) I still often feel fragile and vulnerable. So I will continue to summon up those courageous WQs of the past who have done much to improve the lives of so many.

Ordinary women like the suffragettes, Grace Darling, Florence Nightingale, Marie Stopes, wives of political leaders such as Clemmie Churchill, Lady Astor, Mary Wilson, politicians such as Barbara Castle and yes even Margaret Thatcher (love her or hate her you cannot deny her influence). Royal wives such as Eleanor of Aquitaine, Margaret Beaufort, less famous queens such as Queen Anne. Even our own current monarch QE2 who has served us so well with such grace, charm and dignity and who in her own quiet way has overcome countless obstacles and setbacks, Princess Diana for refusing to be browbeaten and who stood up for her own truth.

I find them all admirable role models. In my book, all in their own differing ways, were WQs

In my own family I have excellent WQs who have guided me and inspired me.....grandmothers who brought up families during the Great Depression and WW2, formidable glamorous aunts who survived poverty stricken childhoods during the 20s and 30s and who always managed to look like a million dollars despite being as poor as church mice, my quiet gentle mother who lived under the German occupation of Belguim and who joined the resistance, smuggling food and medicines across the check points to help her village.

All sadly dead now but their legacy lives on.

With such a history how can I give up and allow my narcissist DIL to destroy me, my son and my family. I will continue to summon up my inner Warrior Queen and keep on fighting.

I will never quit.

And if people try to disrupt this thread and ruin Smiles work then I will fight them too......

If thinking about yourself as a Warrior Queen works for you, if it helps get you through those difficult days then go for it DSL. It works for me and makes me .

Whether or not you identify as a WQ, every single person here demonstrates every day their courage and bravery. Their determination to fight, not just for themselves but for others, by keeping this heartbreaking and for many, humiliating experience in the public domain.

We have no idea how many read the support threads and are helped by our honesty. Occasionally someone will come on and say that they have been, and that always makes me smile too.

Fabulous post in the early hours hugshelp. Hope you're OK and that you didn't have a bad night.

"we keep fighting on no matter what life throws at us" yes we do Whiff, even when it feels just too much because the alternative doesn't bare thinking about does it.

It's good of course to hear another perspective, to know the experience of others that differ from our own. That said, we all have our own and it's wrong to project yours onto someone else.

If someone wants to share about how they feel they contributed to their estrangement, of course that's absolutely fine, but not at the expense of others. IMO the only thing worse than having your own experience and emotions invalidated, is the estrangement itself.

Mandrake. (Interesting choice of nom de plume, I love it).?

The life choices you made were absolutely no reason for you to be estranged. That says more about them, than it ever could about you. It was all about them, they obviously didn't have your best interests at heart.

Smiles.....I too think it's good to learn from others, to see a problem through someone else's eyes. It gives us a fresh perspective and stops us from becoming entrenched in our ways of thinking. That's why I love gransnet in general, not just this thread. There's a lot of Wisdom and knowledge to be found on some of these threads, and often a lot of wit and humour.

I learn something new every time I log in.....

It's such a shame though when you get the occasional poster who is deliberately and wilfully unwilling to countenance anyone else's viewpoint other than their own, who cannot accept that everyone is entitled to their thoughts and feelings, and who insist that they are right and everyone else is out of line. Hey ho, you meet dogmatic people with closed minds in RL so it's hardly surprising you also get them in the virtual world.

Thankfully a little cooler here today. A couple of days respite from the searing heat, until it fires up again. . Going to potter in the garden.

All quiet here on the western front......DIL is all sweetness and light and I'm just keeping my ? the house sale is still on track.
Have done a bit of decluttering but can't really sink my teeth into the packing yet.

So it's just "steady as she goes" for now. ?

Thank you Whiff
I agree with you and DSL - it's great to see ourselves as warrior queens. Not doing battle against anyone else but against the knocks that life has given us. We battle for our survival and our peace of mind.

Thank you for your kind concern smiles. I was up late after we had a summer's night outing trying to catch the full moon which was supposed to be the biggest of the year. It was a bit of a damp squib in the end due to cloud but we visited Castle Hill and met some other lovely people who were there for the same reason. Was just winding down faffing on the PC afterwards.
Couldn't agree more, we all have different journeys, and it's fine to share them, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't respect that the paths others have followed may be different but just as devastating.

Keeping my fingers crossed for your house sale DSL. We've had to give our solicitor a prod as they seem to be on the go slow. Booked a survey for the house we're buying - just waiting for them to come back with the date and bill. Got a few things to chase up with the EAs. Lots of little annoyances but if it all goes through it will totally be worth it.

All brilliant posts as I expect from you all. I have learnt so much about life and what others have had to battle through and also about myself. I am brave but didn't realise that until after my mom died in 2017. Because I just got on with things. Whatever happened before and after my husband's death I just coped with it. I couldn't give in to things. If I stopped doing things because I was in physical or emotional pain then I wouldn't do anything. I hate it if my body stops me doing something especially if it was something I could do a few days earlier. I have to have more patience with myself . I have endless patience with other people and different situations.

Since having my diagnosis I am amazed what my poor parents had to put with when I was a baby and young child. They where just told it was growing pains and I was clumsy.

I read and post on various threads as I have needed help but have also found I can help others. But I only talk about things I have experienced.

Here I feel safe and hated the thought anyone could make anyone doubt themselves . Hated that someone blamed us for what our children have done.

Our children are not the perfect parents they think they are. One day they will realise that . I know my son and daughter in law are good parents and know my grandson's are well looked after and loved and have lots of attention. But I know how much my nan meant to me and my brother. And my grandson's are missing out.

My grandson's with my daughter and son in law are lucky they have 2 nannies and a grandad. When they are older I will tell them about my husband when they ask.

Because of all our life experiences I think we are all WQ's. And long my you reign.

Oh yes Whiff some brilliant posts and I wouldn't expect anything less.

Good to know that there was a good reason for you being up in the early hours hugs and that you've given your solicitor a prod. Always a good idea to do so from time to time.

Those little annoyances can get you down but unfortunately are only to be expected; you'll get there in the end.

'Steady as she goes' sounds just right DSL and what we all know you do admirably.

Good news on the house sale process DSL and Hugs although I know your solicitor needs a prod now and then. I will still be plucking up the courage when your moved in and settled.
I can't see myself as a WQ, but I frequently feel as if I've done a battle, .few people have charmed lives. I know those that seem to drift though life without a care, but we don't know what's really going on. I just never thought I would end up as I am. I ve realised I get down weekends.

Morning everyone. I think weekends can be particularly difficult Allsorts because that's when we tend to see families out and about. Seeing GP's with their GC and their parents can bring home to us what we've lost.

It's lovely here at the lodge but at weekends and during school holidays GC visit GP's. We see and hear them playing and going around the site on their bikes. This is a great safe place for children and sometimes I find myself thinking how much our GS's would have loved coming here, and even staying with us for a day or two.

We had a narrow escape yesterday, going out to get a few things to see us through until we go home on Sunday. A small van over the speed limit, came straight at us as it rounded a corner,
halfway across our side of the road.

Thankfully the driver and Mr. S. reacted immediately and all was well. The first thing that entered my mind was our dogs. What would have happened if there'd been an accident? We'd left them in the lodge and would anyone know?

Being slightly mad, we ended up laughing because I said to
Mr. S. 'thank goodness for your cat like reflexes', but struggled to get the words out in between giggles, because I never thought I'd say Mr. S. and cat like reflexes in the same sentence.
He never thought I would either, so now he keeps grinning at me and doing a very bad impression of a cat.

Thank goodness for laughter, what would we do without it.

Iseethruit

I understand very clearly what each one of you are saying who’s responded to my posts and I disagree with everyone here who believes they had absolutely no part in their estrangements, because my professional experience over 35 years showed me otherwise.

To everyone who believes they have no personal responsibility in your loved one’s pain, you will never find healing with them. If that’s where you want to stay, it’s certainly your choice to remain there.

You can be right or you can help to bring healing to your relationships by exploring your contributions to the estrangements. There’s no other way. End of my communications here and I won’t be reading any further posts from anyone.

I rarely post on this thread because my own children haven't estranged me.

However, my husbands youngest son (late 40's), has been bouncing him (and me) in and out of estrangement for 18 years.

He wants money to talk to my husband - no more, no less. He has gambling and alcohol issues.

His mother (my husbands ex) has been paying him for 18 years not to talk to us. However, her money has now run out.

My husband was thought to be dying last year. When he finally came home, still seriously ill, and I switched on his phone afterwards, it was full of abusive and demanding texts, even though he knew how desperately ill my husband was.

Now, what part do you think we have played in all this?

What prayer do you think will help?

Quite honestly, it's not counselling or prayers I need with his son - it's a bloody cricket bat to hit him with. ?

Oh, didn't realise she'd flounced off - sorry to disrupt the thread. ?

?Diamond Lil. Do hope your dh is ok, but he doesn’t need that son of his making his demands, you can never give an addict enough, that’s what that son is. Stop giving him anything. Your money is for you both, he will have the shirt off your back. Please put yourself first, whatever you do won’t be enough for his son. I hope I haven’t overstepped the mark but I
Hate to thing you have such worry on top of you dh illness.

You haven't disrupted the thread DiamondLily it's good to have your contribution and FWIW "a bloody cricket bat to hit him with" has its temptations for me too.

Seriously though, this is awful for you and your DH. Keep taking care of one another.

DiamondLily you haven't disrupted the thread . You are effected by the estrangement just like the rest of us. Smiles started the threads to help people like us and you. So if you need a friendly ear you know we are hear to listen.

Allsorts all that you have been going through for years and are still battling on ,and still helping others all the time hurting yourself. That is the mark of a WQ . None of us are living the lives we thought we would be living. But we are doing the best we can.

None of us expected our children who we love unconditionally would decided we are not worthy to be part of there and our grandchildren's lives.

They think they are perfect but one day if they haven't already realised it there is no such thing as perfect parenting. Children are not like appliances that come with a book of instructions . We have all done the best we can.

We brought both our children up the same. My daughter loves me and trusts me with her children and knows I will protect them with my life . But seems my son didn't think I would do that he should have known better. It's the only reason I can think of that I was never left alone with his 2 eldest.

My daughter and son in law trusted me with their eldest even when I was having the jerking limbs and seizures.

My son forgets I became like this when he was 6 months old. I never caused any harm to come to either him or his sister. He grew up knowing people have health problems which can effect them physically. His boys where growing up the same.

But I haven't had jerking limbs or seizure since January 2020 thanks to my wonderful neurologist and 2 tablets.

I could blame my daughter in law but it was my son who sent the email and wrote the letter. They are equally to blame . I only hope they haven't told my eldest grandson if he remembers me that I don't want to see them or I am dead.

But one day they will have to answer for their actions. Not by me but my grandson's will have questions. May not be until they are teenagers but one day.

Smiles glad Mr S has cat like reflexes . Enjoy your time at the lodge and keep cool .

Spent the morning at my daughter's and had a lovely lunch. Their new garden is beautiful. And is bigger than I thought. That metal bike shed took up a lot of space. They had the boarders widened and had railway sleepers to boarder them.

Weekends for me are like any other day . But I don't go out of a weekend as I don't need to. Luckily the train strike in August isn't on the days I will be traveling to and back from my brothers and sister in law's.

Take care everyone.

Allsorts and Smiles posted while I was typing. I must be a founder member of the slow one figure typing group. ?

I still giggle when I think of Mr. S's. cat like reflexes Whiff.

Nothing wrong with being a one finger typist and pretty impressive IMO.

I've been looking at some old support threads and it's got me wondering how those who were posting a few years ago are doing now.

Then I thought 'good grief I'm still here' as I read through some of my own posts, but glad to be.

DiamondLily no disruption at all. I am sorry about what you are going through but I confess that your comment Quite honestly, it's not counselling or prayers I need with his son - it's a bloody cricket bat to hit him with made me laugh a bit! I think all of us in various stages of estrangement or fearing estrangement will recognise the feeling that that that comment comes from!!

I am a bit frustrated as I typed a long response to Iseethruit a few days ago, as I thought the statements were unhelpful on many levels on this thread, but for some reason when I posted it just disappeared. As Iseethruit has decided to withdraw I won't bother to type it all again!

Take care everyone in this increasingly hot weather! I see Downing Street has called a red alert emergency thingy because of coming temperatures!