Handling Duty/Obligation as the "estranger" ;

MiaZadora

My advice to you again is to let others speak for themselves.

Threads get lost if arguments happen.

Let what people say stand as testament.

violetsky, i told you i clap when you post sometimes, you just got a full clap and I earned a glare from my my sleeping cats lolol.

There is nothing wrong with estranging an abusive person, it still shocks me to see people say otherwise.

1000 times yes yes yes!

We have got to stop teaching people that abuse is okay, as long as it's from family.

I taught for 9.5 years and people think I'm exaggerating when I talk about the things I've seen people do to their children. I've had kids ask me to be their foster mom or to adopt them because of what they go through at home.

I had 2 twin brothers in my class once and both of them had behavioral/developmental problems. Their mother got pregnant with a new set of twins and dumped the brothers with her family member as she felt "god gave me a second chance with these new babies". The brothers ended up in foster care and somehow, this woman was allowed to keep the new babies.

If someone told those brothers that their mother doesn't deserve estrangement, and I was near, things would get ugly very quickly. She owes them everything and they owe her absolutely nothing. My only hope is that she doesn't destroy the new twins, they're probably 4 or 5 by now and I think about all 4 kids often.

I also had a student who was in a group home because he was sexually abused by his father starting when he was a toddler. When he turned 12, he started touching his youngers siblings, so the parents called the police and they took the brother to juvenile hall and then he ended up in a group home. No one gets to say that child owes his parents anything and the rest of those children are going through who knows what as well.

Though I've described criminal behavior, I've seen other forms of abuse that "weren't that bad and were for their own good". I had a student try to kill herself after her mother berated her in front of me for getting a B on an advanced physics test. Getting a B meant she wouldn't go to medical school and would ruin the family!! I heard teachers saying poor girl, what's wrong with her that she would attempt suicide when her mother just wants the best for her?? WHAT?? At least six of my former students have died by suicide, and it breaks my heart that kids go through so much at the hands of people who should love them.

People who estrange their abusers deserve 0 shame, and 100% support/courage and just because its not criminal behavior, doesn't mean it's not abusive and damaging.

Mia. I decided to learn how to handle my father because estranging him would have meant I would also lose my mother and my sister who was just a child at the time.

By keeping in contact I was able to monitor my sister and ensure that she was not beaten or abused the way I was. In fact on one occasion when he threatened to beat her I stood up to him.

He was 6ft and a big strong athletic man, an ex soldier. I am 5ft 7" and was wearing 3 inch heels. I drew.myself up to my full height so that we were both at the same eye level. I spoke quietly. I told him if he lifted a finger against her I would be reporting him to social service and the police. He caved.

If I had of estranged him I would not have been able to protect her or my mum,

Emotional abuse is starting to be taken very seriously here.

One day patents who emotionally abuse their children will get the prison sentence they deserve. No one will expect forgiveness to be given.

I've watched other tyoes of abuser go to prison 20 years after the crime.

It will happen.

As for forgiveness, forgiving my mother just led to more abuse. I stopped forgiving her.

Acceptance and even understanding she can have...from a distance. I wish her no harm. I just don't live or like her and I no longer feel guilty.

Why should I?

Why should I feel guilty She couldn't keep her scapegoat and emotional punchbag.

No way I will enable that behaviour..

So realistically, I am helping her be a better person lol

When we remove ourselves as scapegoats and emotional punchbag, suddenly abusers become very very obvious to others around them

I am certain of this

"Mia. Don't get upset again."

People keep assuming that I'm full of anger when I'm not. Stop assigning negative emotions to me because I choose to be direct.

People here like to talk in a flowery, emotive way and I don't, but that doesn't mean I'm angry. I have degrees in astrophysics and accounting, I'm very analytical and data-driven.

Sometimes I'm confrontational and argumentative, but not because my temper gets away from me. I'm actually very good at managing my own emotions and adjusting to my audience, so please stop assuming that you need to teach me how to manage my emotions. Direct that at some of the other people here who let their emotions get so out of control that they don't even read what's being written and keep responding to different situations in the same way.

I called out DiamondLily for starting up on the "AC's are terrible" bscause this isn't the thread for that conversation and now "mia is full of anger".

No, Mia wants to have a different conversation than the normal one that happens around here.

Violetsky, I understand what you're saying and I think your advice is sound. They really should appreciate your level-headedness more and perhaps eventually they will.

I think you and I have different goals/purposes when it comes to this place, which is why although I think your advice is sound, I'm not always going to follow it.

Of course, butting out

VioletSky, make no mistake, I genuinely and truly appreciate your input and advice, and if there's one person here I'd choose to listen to above all others, its you. Please don't butt too far out lol

Lol

To be fair, I'm not that good at butting out anyway

Meryl. My abuser was just someone I knew too, despite being a family member. I have no idea why he did what he did.

What you know about your father is sad but there are no excuses (I know you're not excusing him of course) and there never will be.

Learning to handle your father was a valuable lesson DSL as it gave you the experience to deal with your current situation, and so far has enabled you to avoid being estranged and long may that continue.

Well you certainly are argumentative and confrontational. I wont argue with that. ?.

If I had wrongly assumed you were hurt and angry then I apologise. You certainly have good reason to be.

Mia, you asked for an estranged child’s perspective, not an abused child's perspective. Totally different. Then you glibly ask for our favourite ice cream. Then the statement “if your father needed a kidney transplant, you would get tested and if suitable would then refuse him” . Also other such comments. I don’t know who your therapist is but it is concerning. Indifference is not caring, vengeance and bitterness is the opposite.

Allsorts

Mia, you asked for an estranged child’s perspective, not an abused child's perspective. Totally different. Then you glibly ask for our favourite ice cream. Then the statement “if your father needed a kidney transplant, you would get tested and if suitable would then refuse him” . Also other such comments. I don’t know who your therapist is but it is concerning. Indifference is not caring, vengeance and bitterness is the opposite.

Gosh I missed the kidney remark. WOW.

Lots of people wouldn't donate a kidney, it is much more risky to the donor.

I wouldn't let my children give me one.

We don't owe abusers our time so we don't owe them our bodies.

I would say no too. My children need me

The question started by asking how estranges feel about their decision. Most people who chose to estrange parents seemed to feel liberated. The focus has been on adult children who estranged parental figures. It’s good to see the decision to estrange has been positive for many.

I was disappointed to see Derbyshire’s decision to ‘learn how to handle’ her abusive father, re-framed ‘it sounds like it was really important for you to be a good daughter, whatever that means to you, so maybe that’s why you decided to handle him, rather than leaving’.
MiaZadora, dismissing Derbyshire in this way could be experienced by others as hurtful and patronising, to say the least. You aren’t the only poster with extensive experience of estrangement and working with children who experienced significant abuse. Understanding our own unfinished emotional business, strengthening our boundaries helps us not to exacerbate the pain of others.

I have so much I want to say and so many problems I would point out in discussion where some feel free to say unkind things and bring animosity across threads because their own hurt matters more apparently and their own behaviour somehow justified

But it's just pointless.

*goes away

allsorts, most estranged children are abused children, so no they aren't totally different things.

Contrary to what you keep saying, most estranged children were abused/neglected in some way and that's why they're estranged. Stop negating the experiences of others because you feel you were wronged by your own children.

It's telling that you are passing judgment about what I would choose to do with my own body over a man who abandoned me.

If you feel so upset about it, go find a person on the donor list that abandoned their child and then give them your kidney. I'll keep my bitter vengeful body parts to myself.

Unbelievable.

"I was disappointed to see Derbyshire’s decision to ‘learn how to handle’ her abusive father, re-framed ‘it sounds like it was really important for you to be a good daughter, whatever that means to you, so maybe that’s why you decided to handle him, rather than leaving’. MiaZadora, dismissing Derbyshire in this way could be experienced by others as hurtful and patronising, to say the least. " - Iam64

I wasn't being dismissive, hurtful or patronizing. When I responded to her post, she hadn't said that she chose to handle her father so she wouldn't be estranged from her mother and her younger sister, she said that later.

So when I wrote that, I was offering a possible reason for why she chose to handle her father instead of walking away. If you read the post, she's the one who said she has a clear conscience because she was a good daughter.

I posted at the beginning of my response to DSL that I was not being critical of DSL, I was commenting on the "walk away vs learn to handle it" discussion.

Go back and read the entirety of the post.

Iam64. Thanks. I took it on the chin.......I see no shame in wanting to be a good daughter.

As I said, quite apart from wanting to be there for my mother and sister, I also found it liberating to know that I did what I felt was right, that I was happy in my own skin, that I could sleep at night with a clear conscience.

Then I was able to put the past behind me and go on to build myself a fabulous life, free from anger, bitterness, hate. Instead I filled my life with joy, love, fun and laughter. Yes I made a few mistakes along the way. Married a good man but the wrong man when I was 19 and then married the love of my life when I was 31.

It is only in recent years thst I have become familiar with the term "Radical Acceptance". When that is what I had actually been practising for years without realising it. Here's the definition.

"Radical Acceptance is when you stop fighting reality, stop responding with impulsive and destructive behaviours when things aren't going the way you want them to and you let go of the bitterness that may be keeping you in a cycle of suffering".

I hadn't a clue that I had inadvertently stumbled onto a clinically accepted coping strategy. I just sort of found my own way out of the maze.

I am no saint, no Miss Goody Two Shoes I just didnt feel estrangement was appropriate for me. I wanted to have a connection with my family, even my father. He wasn't a bad man, just a seriously flawed one.

Radical Acceptance is a new term for me but I definitely relate to it as a constructive coping mechanism. I believe many of us find our own way out of the maze. It isn’t about being perfect, being good it’s about finding a way forward that works for us

Only one of the reasons Mia. And not the principal reason, not by a long shot.

The principal reason was for me, for my sake. My well being. I wanted to rest easy with a clear conscience. I wanted to look in the mirror and like what I saw. I wanted to fulfil my duties and obligations, I wanted to be a good daughter. I wanted to be the bigger, better person. I wanted to be kind to a man who couldn't help what he was.

My choices. Obviously my solution to my problem won't suit everyone but it worked and still works for me. No regrets.

Because of my choice my children had grandparents in their lives. If I had estranged my father then they wouldn't have had them. They would have missed out.

One of my close friends has in recent years recognised that her father’s rages and occasional violent outbursts were the result of his time in the railways in Japanese prisoner of war camp. She feels relief that despite feeling angry with her mum for ‘tolerating’ these outbursts, she now recognised her mother had a greater understanding of the horrors he’d endured.
In her teens and early adult life she distanced but didn’t estrange. Later adult life led to a level of emotional reconciliation. Her children just loved their grandparents

VioletSky

I have so much I want to say and so many problems I would point out in discussion where some feel free to say unkind things and bring animosity across threads because their own hurt matters more apparently and their own behaviour somehow justified

But it's just pointless.

*goes away

It is pointless and I'm sorry you're often the voice of reason that gets ignored. I've ignored your advice, as you know, lol so I'm not saying I'm perfect here, but I've seen you try to get people to understand what's going on many times and I respect you so much for continuing to try.

There's a huge double standard here for what kind of behavior is kind and who is being difficult and lots of things get glossed over and justified because of that double standard.

I'm just so grateful and happy for the people in real life who got away. If they ever stumble upon some of these threads, they will pat themselves on the back for getting away from these people, I just hope they don't waste a second feeling guilty over people who don't deserve it.

I'm not trying to get anyone into my life that doesn't want to be there, yet people who are in that situation are telling me how bitter and awful I am and that I need to behave more like they do.

The Irony...

Mia most estranged children are not abused children. So your thread should have said abused estranged children. However you choose to think that, meaning all of us with estranged children must have been abusers. Is tgst what radical acceptance is?

MerylStreep

DSL
I was in my 30s before I knew/ understood where my fathers violent abusive rages came from.
I learnt that he was 19, a signalman on the Russian convoys. Life expectancy: 4 days.
Unlike you, there was no contact ( bar 2 weddings ) after I left home at 18.
I bear no grudge. He’s just someone I knew.

Meyl. Sorry I didn't respond to your post, I can well guess at how your father might have been.

Like most people of my generation my father also served jn WW2. There is no doubt in mind he suffered from PTSD - he had nightmares for years from which he would wake up screaming,

Add to that he also suffered from Narcissitic Personality Disorder and you have a heady cocktail of mental instability.

The rages were terrifying, they seemed to come from nowhere, one minute he was sweetness and light and then like a flick of a switch he would descend into a violent rage,

Like most narcissists he was grandiose and considered himself to be superior to everyone else. He was also vain and shallow, jealous and resentful of others.

Perhaps if his PTSD had been recognised and treated he might have found some peace but obviously PTSD wasnt really understood back then.

He was a deeply unhappy man, more to be pitied than hated.