Handling Duty/Obligation as the "estranger" ;

I think that, for our parents generation, that was probably a common occurrence Iam64. Our parents rarely, if ever, spoke of what they'd experienced during the war years and the psychological trauma that ensued. No therapy or counselling available and so a whole generation had to grow up dealing with the aftermath. Tragic for everyone.

Iam64

One of my close friends has in recent years recognised that her father’s rages and occasional violent outbursts were the result of his time in the railways in Japanese prisoner of war camp. She feels relief that despite feeling angry with her mum for ‘tolerating’ these outbursts, she now recognised her mother had a greater understanding of the horrors he’d endured.
In her teens and early adult life she distanced but didn’t estrange. Later adult life led to a level of emotional reconciliation. Her children just loved their grandparents

I am 64. How sad. I worked with a man who had been a Japanese POW. He had been forced to work on the Burma railway. He died quite young, early 50s as a result of the Ill treatment he had endured.

So many wrecked lives.....

This is what many of the children of these poor wrecked men had to endure. To totally estrange them and abandon them would have been wrong, so many of us did what your friend did. We tried to be good daughters, so we didnt estrange them we distanced ourselves from them but kept the lines of communication open. We allowed our children to have a relationship with their grandparents.

I know some of you might feel that these men were abusive and deserve to be estranged but I beg to differ. Many of these ex military men were victims too.

MerylStreep, apologies for not acknowledging your post when I mentioned my friend’s experience. It was your post that made me think about her.

My parents generation were children in the backdrop of ww1 and grew into young adulthood during ww2. As Chewbacca says, there was no psychological support. The message was to get on with it. Inevitably, many of the men had experienced real horrors and terrors, the women who stayed at home many losses alongside greater independence.

Our generation grew up with that get on with it mantra. It’s not without positives but like any other mantra or coping mechanism can be wearing.
I wonder if ageing helps people to be more accepting, less certain

MiaZadora81

*allsorts*, most estranged children are abused children, so no they aren't totally different things.

Contrary to what you keep saying, most estranged children were abused/neglected in some way and that's why they're estranged. Stop negating the experiences of others because you feel you were wronged by your own children.

It's telling that you are passing judgment about what I would choose to do with my own body over a man who abandoned me.

If you feel so upset about it, go find a person on the donor list that abandoned their child and then give them your kidney. I'll keep my bitter vengeful body parts to myself.

Unbelievable.

" most estranged children were abused children"

You are way off beam with that. In fact the majority of estranged AC had perfectly happy loving childhoods and difficulties arise only when they become adults for a variety of reasons. The most common reasons given by AECs are ; Parental disapproval of their spouse or partner
Interfering in their life choices, careers, parenting styles etc
Religious differences
Ignored boundaries
Overbearing and undermining grandparenting
Parents having perceived favourites among siblings.
The list is long and varied so it is inaccurate to say that abuse is the main reason. By maintaining that inaccuracy you are strengthening the general outsiders view that no child would walk away from decent parents. This path is already hard enough to navigate without people falsely confirming their misunderstandings about the subject.

Yes, I think acceptance does come with aging. My father did eventually mellow. And he did (sort of) apologise.

We were never close but I know he loved me in his fashion, Insofar as he was capable of love and I know he was immensely proud of me.

I am now 71 and I too have mellowed. I am more tolerant of peoples flaws. I see the futility of harbouring grudges and resentment. Life is just too short.

Allsorts

Mia most estranged children are not abused children. So your thread should have said abused estranged children. However you choose to think that, meaning all of us with estranged children must have been abusers. Is tgst what radical acceptance is?

Allsorts, I can't tell if you're trolling me with this or not, so I'm going to assume you are genuinely confused and explain the difference between most and all.

If someone says, "Most of the towels in my house are Red", they are not saying ,"All of the towels in my house are Red" nor are they saying "All towels are Red".

If we apply that same logic to what I said, you will see that I did not say ALL estranged children were abused. I said MOST estranged children are abused children.

As you might know, there are often major disagreements between EPs and EACs on the cause of the estrangement. The #1 reason cited by EACs for estrangement is abuse while the #1 reason cited by EP's is external factors, like someone turning the child against them.

Here's an example of an article about this: www.bbc.com/future/article/20190328-family-estrangement-causes

There have been many studies carried out in various places on this issue and the results continue to show that there is a disconnect between what parents say cause estrangement and what children say.

However, as most estrangements between parents and children are initiated by the child and the parents are the ones who want to keep the relationship, denying the reasons given by the estranged children only serve to push them further away.

Finally, I think you just want to keep having a go at me, and I've decided I've had enough. None of the people who keep coming after my politeness/tone/attitude/seem to care about how and what you say to me because of that double standard I mentioned above, so I'll take steps to protect myself by no longer responding to the digs, and leaving you with the quote below.

"Healing begins with awareness, understanding, and action.” - Diane Metcalf

"most estranged children were abused children"

Normandy girl - *In fact the majority of estranged AC had perfectly happy loving childhoods and difficulties arise only when they become adults for a variety of reasons. The most common reasons given by AECs are ; Parental disapproval of their spouse or partner
Interfering in their life choices, careers, parenting styles etc
Religious differences
Ignored boundaries
Overbearing and undermining grandparenting
Parents having perceived favourites among siblings.
The list is long and varied so it is inaccurate to say that abuse is the main reason. By maintaining that inaccuracy you are strengthening the general outsiders view that no child would walk away from decent parents. This path is already hard enough to navigate without people falsely confirming their misunderstandings about the subject.*

Normandygirl that is really interesting, what is the source of that information please? I would like to read more about the list of causes etc that you give above.

Some very sad stories of father's so traumatised from their war time experiences that they were unable to parent effectively.

Their long suffering wives who endured not just their abuse but the abuse of their children because they didn't know what to do and there was no one to help them.

Times were different then, never easy to take the children and leave even today but it must have been so much harder then.

So many reasons for estrangement as you say Normandygirl.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Direct Quote from the bbc article:

"Adult children in the UK, for example, most often mention emotional abuse as the cause of their estrangement from their parents."

More sources that are peer-reviewed researched scholarly articles, not just my opinion. The data is there.

www.standalone.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/HiddenVoices.FinalReport.pdf

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0312407X.2015.1004355

digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1066&context=commstudiespapers

Note, I didn't say abuse was the ONLY reason, I said it's the MOST common reason cited

I have provided multiple sources, from experts in the field who have done research for years, so I'd also love sources.

Thankyou Mia Yes I have seen and read all of those resources previously. The Hidden Voices is a particularly interesting and accessible document.

I am interested to know the source of the information that Normandygirl provided as I think that would also be an interesting resource.

Madgran77, thank you for acknowledging that I provided credible sources for my statements as I expected that people would just ignore it and keep calling me wrong.

I appreciate being proven wrong in this instance and I agree that the hidden voices pdf is really well done and does a great job of breaking down types of estrangements and reasons people give.

The Hidden Voices survey personally invited 1,629 to participate and 807 took part. Common contributing factors "included emotional abuse, clashes of personality and values and mismatched expectations".

The second link refers to a qualitative survey with 26 participants and the 3 core reasons for estrangement were abuse, poor parenting and betrayal.

"Estrangement was generally triggered by a relatively minor incident or a more serious act of betrayal considered to have been enacted by the parent".

The third link states "adult children most frequently attributed their estrangement to their parents toxic behaviour or feeling unsupported and unaccepted".

Abuse is of course one reason for estrangement emotional, physical or a combination of the two but does not appear to be, from the links provided, the most common reason.

Personalty clashes, clashes of values and mismatched expectations can occur without abuse being a factor. Poor parenting may be due to the parenting being poor or perceived as being poor by the AC.

Feeling unsupported and unaccepted may have been due to parenting but could also be the AC's perception of their upbringing.

https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202207/medium-747325-estrqangement.jpg https://www.gransnet.com/uploads/talk/202207/medium-746514-abusetoxicity.jpg

Smileless2012, let's practice reading data together.

Let's have a look at page 10 of the stand alone voices pdf, ive attached an image. What's the top reason children gave for estranging their parents? EMOTIONAL ABUSE

Second site: you ignored the words until you found the ones you thought proved your point. Here are the key words you skipped: "Participants reported three core reasons for estrangement: (i) abuse, (ii) poor parenting, and (iii) betrayal.

Third article: This is where you have your strongest argument as the #1 reason isn't abuse, it's parental toxicity.

"Parents reported that their primary reason for becoming estranged stemmed from their children’s objectionable relationships or sense of entitlement, whereas
adult children most frequently attributed their estrangement to their parents’ toxic behavior or feeling unsupported and unaccepted".

Now let's examine the data on page 4, snip attached. The data is broken down by type of conflict: intrafamily, intrapersonal, interpersonal, etc.

They listed the data in order of frequency, so the most popular reasons come first. Notice intrafamily issues are cited as the reason for estrangement by 46% of parents and 59% of children.

Then the authors broke the data down further, as in, what do "intrafamily issues" represent. And you know what the adult children say? Parental Toxicity at 22% of individuals and then abuse is second at 14% of individuals.

Parental toxicity as defined by the authors is "continuous situations of hurtfulness, anger, cruelty and perpetual disrespect"...which a lot of people would call emotional abuse, but let's stick with parental toxicity since that's what the data says.

So, let's amend my statement to "Most estranged children are victims of parental toxicity and abuse".

I know you wish you could write me off as some bitter unhinged idiot, but I'm really not. Denial is not a river in Egypt folks and wisdom isn't always a function of time.

One of the reasons I can be argumentative and confrontational is because I respect facts, data, and logic over people's opinions and feelings.

When the data says I'm wrong, I change my conclusion. When people say I'm wrong, I go look for credible data to support what I've said and if I find that I'm wrong, I change my statement.

Going forward I will say "Most estranged adult children estrange due to parental toxicity and abuse"...because that's what the data says. Thanks for helping me be more accurate.

Madgran 77

It was a study done by Cambridge University called "Hidden Voices" Estrangement in Adulthood.
I have it in paper format but a google should find it for you.

Normandygirl I linked that as a resource and have attached an image.

Go to page 11.

"A great range and diversity of factors were identified as contributing to the breakdown of relationships. *The five factors that were most commonly cited as being ‘very relevant’ to relationship breakdown with mothers and fathers separately are listed below. *"

Now, look at the table. It lists the 5 most common reasons given by children estranged from parents. 77% of people estranged from mothers cite emotional abuse, while 59% of people estranged from fathers cite emotional abuse.

Again, I didn't say abuse is the only reason. And now that smileless2012 pointed it out, i was wrong and really should say : "Most estranged adult children estrange due to parental toxicity and abuse".

And at 77% and 59% reporting emotional abuse, yeah that's most.

MiaZadora 81

" Most estranged children were abused/neglected in some way"

That statement suggests that the EAC's were abused or neglected during their upbringing. That is true for some but as I have already said most AEC's have perfectly fine childhoods but find their adult relationships with their parents difficult for lots of reasons. The use of the word abuse is massively overused.

Normandygirl

MiaZadora 81

" Most estranged children were abused/neglected in some way"

That statement suggests that the EAC's were abused or neglected during their upbringing. That is true for some but as I have already said most AEC's have perfectly fine childhoods but find their adult relationships with their parents difficult for lots of reasons. The use of the word abuse is massively overused.

Please provide the source for this statement: "That is true for some but as I have already said most AEC's have perfectly fine childhoods but find their adult relationships with their parents difficult for lots of reasons. The use of the word abuse is massively overused."

Because your source, the hidden voices report, says "For mothers and fathers, the most commonly cited factors are similar, with the most commonly cited factor being identified as emotional abuse."

Page 11, top right corner.

It doesn't say that they were happy as kids and the emotional abuse started in adulthood, but I'm looking forward to reading about that because that's super interesting. I love data.

I am happy to see this discussion start to provide good stats. Those reports mirror what I have heard when talking to other EAC online. One of the reasons I started lurking and then joined GN was because I wanted to see the other side of estrangement and try to learn more.

I do have to say though, that I barely posted on this thread. Since I became a member over (?) 2 years ago, the conversation has not changed. The same people are arguing over the same discussion day after day and it is getting tiresome TBH. I do not see why each group can not have a safe space without interference and come together in other threads? We both exist here, that is not going to change. We can both support each other and disagree at the same time while giving each other the space we need in different threads. GN is literally the only forum I have been on where some of its members are so adamant about being able to post on threads that simply may not pertain to them. Yes, you can. But should you? And why? That was rhetorical, I don't really want to argue over the answers.

Anyhow, I wanted to post about this:

*Parental disapproval of their spouse or partner
Interfering in their life choices, careers, parenting styles etc
Religious differences
Ignored boundaries
Overbearing and undermining grandparenting
Parents having perceived favourites among siblings.*

I have seen these reasons online as well, though I do not remember if it was an official study or not. While some of these behaviors may not be abusive, they are toxic. In my life, if a toxic behavior is addressed and the person chooses to continue the toxic behavior, that continued behavior then becomes abusive. So while not being abusers in the traditional sense, they can choose to continue abusive behaviors.

I have never disagreed with anyone who has said that not all EP were abusive. Because not all EP are abusive. But none of us can have a true discussion about estrangement without acknowledging that MANY (not all) EAC are reporting estrangement choices are due to toxic behavior and abuse AND the fact that MANY EP are reporting reasons that are directly opposite of that.

I applaud the OP for trying to open this discussion up again. Sadly, I am not optimistic that the discussion will continue.

Toxic behaviour can be subjective though. Was it toxic of us to move to another city, within easy driving distance, for a more affordable family life? Was it toxic of us to not want MIL treating our home as her own and having limits on how often visiting worked for us? I don't think so but it was enough for MIL to turn her back on us. She'd probably tell you we were the estrangers but she was the one who said she was walking away. She is the estranger.

There is no longer any coming back from that and I feel no duty towards her. Even as a very loyal person. She made her bed.

I would help her a little if she needed it but with firm limitations. She has chosen not to have a place in my life.

Chewbacca

I think that, for our parents generation, that was probably a common occurrence Iam64. Our parents rarely, if ever, spoke of what they'd experienced during the war years and the psychological trauma that ensued. No therapy or counselling available and so a whole generation had to grow up dealing with the aftermath. Tragic for everyone.

I certainly think the war affected my mother. They lived in London's East end throughout the war, lost 3 houses to bombs, and when the last bomb hit, my mother, age 14, helped to dig out her father - he was dead when they pulled him out. ?

So, I think it affected her whole life. It's difficult for anyone born after the last war to really understand the horrors that some went through. It's not an excuse for anything, but I do think it affected many lives.

My stepson has bounced us in and out of estrangement for 18 years.

He wasn't abused - he freely admits my DH was a great Dad.?

He just wants money, and is having a massive tantrum because we won't comply.

He can thrash about all he likes - we don't do threats, and we don't subsidise alcohol abuse or gambling.?

When my DH was very ill last year, he even asked him how much he'd be left in DH's Will - well, he's in for a shock now, as he's been cut out completely...?

DerbyshireLass

Only one of the reasons Mia. And not the principal reason, not by a long shot.

The principal reason was for me, for my sake. My well being. I wanted to rest easy with a clear conscience. I wanted to look in the mirror and like what I saw. I wanted to fulfil my duties and obligations, I wanted to be a good daughter. I wanted to be the bigger, better person. I wanted to be kind to a man who couldn't help what he was.

My choices. Obviously my solution to my problem won't suit everyone but it worked and still works for me. No regrets.

Because of my choice my children had grandparents in their lives. If I had estranged my father then they wouldn't have had them. They would have missed out.

Yes, I did the same.

I put my childhood "to bed" and got on with adult life. It worked for me too. I let go of the past years ago.

As for hypothetical kidneys, then, yes, if suitable I would have donated one to the mother.

I know, categorically, whatever our relationship, that she would have done the same for me.

Thankfully, the situation didn't arise. ?

I think those of us who had parents who had lived through WW2 often had less than idyllic childhoods. They lived through horrors that left them deeply traumatised and damaged and unable to parent effectively.

This does not condone their abuse but it does help us understand, well it did help me to understand. And, as I grew up, this understanding helped me handle my father and manage my situation.

Whatever the rights and wrongs he was my father and I always felt he deserved kindness and compassion. He served his country for 9 years. For his funeral we arranged for members of his old regiment to help carry his coffin and deliver a eulogy. He deserved no less. He didn't deserve to be estranged, and I would never have abandoned him.

As for the hypothetical kidneys........well thankfully I wasn't put to the test. When he contracted leukaemia I did ask his doctor if he would benefit from a bone marrow transplant but apparently not.

Would I have given some bone marrow. Yes.

No doubt some will think that I too am damaged and see me as a victim.. I don't feel this at all. Yes my life got off to a shaky start and it could have been easier, but that's all water under the bridge. I have had a fantastic life and hopefully I've still got even more ahead of me. I made it my business to have a happy and successful life.

I had the good sense and the ability to, as Diamond Lil says, "put my childhood to bed". I would urge anyone who has suffered childhood trauma to do the same. Get counselling if you need it. Do what it takes. For some that well mean estrangement but some might not need such a drastic solution. You might be able to manage by simply stepping back with reduced contact.

Estrangement should be the final resort when all else has failed. It is not a quick fix, nor is it the solution to all your problems. You cannot shrug off your problems by running away from them. I tried it, it doesn't work. ?. As I teenager I ran away from home several times but I couldn't run away from my problems.

"Wherever you go, there you are".

You can't outrun your life, you have to take a stand and change it.

And no I'm not telling anyone to turn the other cheek, I certainly didn't. I fought back. You don't have to forgive and certainly you must never forget. Instead learn from the experience so that you can grow and become a bigger better person than your tormentor.

Don't let hurt, anger and bitterness hold you back from living a full and joyous life. Theres an old saying that revenge is a dish best served cold, I say the best revenge is to live your best life and be happy. Confound those who would hurt you.

Bearing a grudge serves no purpose, it will only corrupt your soul and destroy your chance of happiness.

Above all show a little kindness and compassion, first to yourself and then to everyone else. Fill your life with love. Love is like a boomerang, you send it out into the world and it comes back to you.

If you can't love then at least show mercy. As the Bard said.

"The quality of mercy is not strained, it droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven upon the place beneath. It is twice blessed - it blesseth him that gives, and him that takes".

Wise words.

Love and mercy are healing balm. Practice them and you will be set free, no longer shackled to a miserable past.

Speaking of rain......it's raining here ....... at last. ? ?.

Mandrake

Toxic behaviour can be subjective though. Was it toxic of us to move to another city, within easy driving distance, for a more affordable family life? Was it toxic of us to not want MIL treating our home as her own and having limits on how often visiting worked for us? I don't think so but it was enough for MIL to turn her back on us. She'd probably tell you we were the estrangers but she was the one who said she was walking away. She is the estranger.

There is no longer any coming back from that and I feel no duty towards her. Even as a very loyal person. She made her bed.

I would help her a little if she needed it but with firm limitations. She has chosen not to have a place in my life.

Mandrake I think that is very true that perception and interpretation play a big part in estrangement, that "toxic" can be subjective etc. Not all estrangements ofcourse but it is something that I can see in many estrangements discussed on here, both by EPs and EACs.