Handling Duty/Obligation as the "estranger" ;

MiaZadora81

" It doesn't say that they were happy as kids and the emotional abuse started in adulthood"
I would think that if childhood abuse was the cause for the estrangement they would have cited that as a reason?
Data is all well and good but we have to be careful of interpretation bias though

I agree imaround and have seen the reasons why some EAC estrange that you've listed numerous times both here and on other sites.

There are numerous reasons why AC estrange, physical/emotional abuse or a combination is one, but IMO there is insufficient evidence to support a claim that is the reason in most cases.

I do not agree with your revised statement Mia that "Most estranged children are victims of parental toxicity and abuse" IMO there just isn't sufficient evidence to support this.

This for me is the problem when this issue is discussed on an open forum. As you've posted Mandrake "Toxic behaviour can be subjective" what is deemed as toxic by one, may not be regarded as toxic by another.

It's the same for overstepping boundaries, lack of respect, not listening, not liking a partner, not agreeing with the way children are raised, being scapegoated, not being or being the golden child, not being accepted; the list goes on.

These are things that are experienced on an individual and personal level. My brother was mum's golden child, she didn't always listen to me and there were times when I felt scapegoated but I didn't estrange her.

Despite those issues, we loved one another and in may ways had a good relationship. For some, those reasons would underpin the decision to estrange which is fair enough. For some those behaviours maybe considered as toxic and even emotionally abusive, that's fair enough too.

If that is how someone has experienced their childhood, whose to say they are wrong? Likewise, when an EP says they weren't abusive, don't know why they've been estranged or the estrangement happened due to the coercive, controlling and manipulative behaviour of their AC's partner, whose to say that isn't the case?

Surveys have their place in these discussions of course but they are not infallible, and with such an understandably small sample, are not wholly representative of why most EAC estrange.

In this case, the only person whose opinion of toxicity matters is the one estranging. Those parents can listen and respect that OR they can call it all subjective and dismiss the reasons.

The respondants in that peer reviewed valid scientific study cited the reasons they estranged. No one seems to be listening.

I'm sure that every child who estranges (or every parent who estranges their child) feels they have very valid reasons.

imaround - I am not an EP and get on very well with my CIL so far. The subjectivity I'm referring to is reflecting on my MIL's perceptions of my toxic behaviour (in her opinion). As far as I'm concerned, her behaviour was out of line, she thinks I'm out of line. So, subjective on both sides there! Big difference is that I'm willing to dialogue and listen, she is not.

In this case, the only person whose opinion of toxicity matters is the one estranging. Those parents can listen and respect that OR they can call it all subjective and dismiss the reasons

It is true that the person who has been estranged can listen or dismiss ..whether they are an EAC or EP.

Mandrake

I'm sure that every child who estranges (or every parent who estranges their child) feels they have very valid reasons.

imaround - I am not an EP and get on very well with my CIL so far. The subjectivity I'm referring to is reflecting on my MIL's perceptions of my toxic behaviour (in her opinion). As far as I'm concerned, her behaviour was out of line, she thinks I'm out of line. So, subjective on both sides there! Big difference is that I'm willing to dialogue and listen, she is not.

And with this post I suppose I am invalidating my MIL's reasons. I'll acknowledge her feelings and viewpoint but it won't change the way I live. Truth be told though, I'm sure we could have worked out a nice relationship if she hadn't been invalidating of me. Maybe each party invalidates each other and feels justified doing so? How messy it all is.

Indeed Madgran both EP's and EAC's are capable of listening or dismissing.

I'm not sure what you mean why you say "no one seems to be listening" imaround. I agree, and would say that in every case the "the only person whose opinion of toxicity that matters is the one estranging".

Which is why IMO generalisations like 'in most cases' for example, disrupt the conversation.

DerbyshireLass I agree 100% with your excellent post @ 09.05, particularly no longer shackled to a miserable past. Therein lies the key.

The definition of abuse for me comes down to intent. If the behaviour, physical, verbal or otherwise is deliberate and intended to cause harm/hurt to the other then I label it abuse. Only the parties involved know whether that intention was there, so anyone outside of the situation is not qualified to label it as abusive or not.

How messy it all is. Indeed.

Call me an old hippy but I truly believe the best way out of the mess is love and kindness. If you can't manage that, then settle for compassion and understanding,

I have said all I have to say on the subject. The real world is calling and I have a ton of stuff to get through. I have told you my story, explained what worked for me. If it helps someone then great, if not and you feel my experience is irrelevant to your circumstances well that's ok too.

It's cost me nothing but a few hours of my time when it was too hot to do anything else but stay indoors and hang around the internet. Now it's time for me to crack on.

Tempus Fugit and all that.

BTW. I meant to say Mia, thanks for the links. I am familiar with most of them. My own take is that whilst statistics are very useful in explaining how many etc. they sometimes fall short of explaining the whys and wherefores.

I appreciate that as an astrophysist your brain will lean towards science for explanations. Mine works differently, I always look to the liberal arts. History, anthropology, philosophy, literature.

Neither approach is either right or wrong. They just come at the same problems from different angles. Both disciplines have attracted some of the greatest minds through history. Surprisingly they often come together with the same results and conclusions.

You will notice I am a great one for quoting literature. I find a lot of my answers in the works of the great literary giants who understood the human condition and who were able to translate their wisdom into an easily accessible form, books, stories, plays, poems.

I am actually an aetheist but even so I can still appreciate the value of some religious teachings.

The great Ghandi who taught us how to use passive resistance with devastating effect. Martin Luther King who taught us how to stand up to oppression with quiet dignity and courage. John Lennon who asked us to just simply "Imagine".

And probably the greatest literary giant of all, Shakespeare who seems light ahead of his time but who seemed to understand what makes humans tick. Good and bad. Yes I know not all his thoughts were original, he borrowed freely. But isn't that what the best minds do, they remain open and are prepared to explore all possibilities. They cherry pick from the best, building on the knowledge of centuries.

How does all this equate to estrangement ....well I think it helps us look for creative solutions to what are often very difficult and sometimes seemingly intractable problems.

However, I genuinely believe that nothing is impossible. Ok we can't cheat death forever, the grim reaper gets us all in the end, but even in the most hopeless situation there is often a way forward, As Audrey Hepburn (herself a victim Of WW2, she almost starved) is quoted as saying the word impossible can be broken down to mean "l'm possible".

Before I leave you all heres my recipe for a happy, successful and productive life.

Resolve to be happy.
It's never too late to make a fresh start in life, it ain't over till it's over.
The world owes you nothing.
You can change your stars.
Your future is yours to make.
Your life is yours to mould and shape.
If you are lying in the gutter you can still look up at the stars.
No one can take your dreams .
Never look back in anger, always look forward with hope and optimism.
Don't think small, dream big.

And finally - if your dreams don't scare you, they aren't big enough.

Farewell and good luck to you all.

I totally agree with that Madrake for me too "If the behaviour, physical, verbal or otherwise is deliberate and intended to cause harm/hurt to the other then I label it abuse".

Very well put.

What a fabulous post DSL .

sorry Mandrake I missed the 'n' out of your name.

Normandygirl

The definition of abuse for me comes down to intent. If the behaviour, physical, verbal or otherwise is deliberate and intended to cause harm/hurt to the other then I label it abuse. Only the parties involved know whether that intention was there, so anyone outside of the situation is not qualified to label it as abusive or not.

Yes, I agree with you - some things are examples of poor parenting, but not everything is abuse.

Life and circumstances can cause people to behave badly, at times. We've all done it, because humans aren't perfect.

In most cases, families forgive and forget - and get in with life, and each other, although well aware of each other's shortcomings.

Obviously, where intentional abuse has occurred, whatever it's type, there can't be too much forgiveness.

How messy it all is

Indeed it is Mandrake

Good morning everyone!

In the wise words of VioletSky, I'm going to let people's words stand for themselves .

As an astronomy nerd, this is the emotional equivalent of talking to flat-earthers.

How about we try to get this back on track, meaning my OP?

"Estrangers", I know you're out there from the private messages I've received trying to help me.

One person said that she's too afraid to post here because of the toxicity and suggested a friendlier space, while another person said that she had to step away from the forum because the dynamic is the exact one she has with her mother and she had a panic attack.

I'm so sorry that people are being affected this way. Please don't risk your mental health for strangers on the internet, it's never ever worth it.

I think we can provide support for each other, it'll just require us to handle things differently. In my case, I'm just going to stop reading/responding to posts from certain OP's who have shared enough and focus on the people who are trying to respect the spirit of the thread.

Thanks yall, (yeah I lived in texas, but am not a texan )

Oh dear that is a shame. A couple of EP's are taking a break from the estrangement forum for very similar reasons, and I'm also sorry that people are being affected in this way.

Hopefully things will settle down.

Thanks Derbyshire lass. The focus on love and thinking positively is what’s helped me most during my adult life.

Iam64

Thanks Derbyshire lass. The focus on love and thinking positively is what’s helped me most during my adult life.

And me. Life is too short for permanent angst and dwelling on the past.

Onwards and upwards, looking to the future.??

I commend you for trying Mia. I think being able to discuss the feeling associated with the choice to estrange is helpful for those who feel it.

I hope that those who are lurking and saying they do not feel safe discussing it here are able to find somewhere they do feel safe discussing it.

I mentioned guilt for me.

But there was also the grief.

It's harder to talk about the grief because I don't know if people will always understand.

I grieved everything I wanted the relationship to be. I grieved the mother I needed. I grieved the it like a death.

And I didn't stop hoping that she could love me enough to fix herself for a long time so it was ongoing...

I don't know exactly when that hope died, it just fizzled out but I still occasionally find myself thinking "I want my mum" but it's not the mum I have.

I think not having a loving parent is one of the most devastating things a child can face. We are programmed to want and need our mothers. So much depends on having formed a good attachment to a mother.

Maybe those who didn't estrange simply had a different experience to me, or maybe they see me as weak.

I don't see myself as weak, I'm strong, in a different way

imaround

In this case, the only person whose opinion of toxicity matters is the one estranging. Those parents can listen and respect that OR they can call it all subjective and dismiss the reasons.

The respondants in that peer reviewed valid scientific study cited the reasons they estranged. No one seems to be listening.

Those of you who are citing problems with sample size, interpretation bias, methodology, etc. about research data from Cambridge University, please contact them with your concerns and let me know that they say. I'm genuinely curious!

Rejecting data that doesn't conform to your beliefs is called confirmation bias and it affects everyone.

There's a Canadian author by the name of Louise Penny and she writes a fiction series that follows Chief Inspector Armand Gamauche.

Gamauche tells new police officers that there are 4 phrases that lead to wisdom:
1. I'm sorry
2. I was wrong
3. I don't know
4. I need help

Such simple phrases but such an important message. It's okay to be wrong or not to know something, but we grow by admitting we need help sometimes and apologizing when we were wrong.

Again thank you so much imaround.

violetsky

I grieve the relationship I might have had with my bio mom had she not died, but I also ask myself "would she have liked me?". I don't think she would've as most of what I know about her indicates she was caught up in the toxic family dynamic as well.

Maybe I'd be a different person if she'd lived but I have no idea. It's more comforting to think that she would have liked and loved me as the person I am today, and I find myself grieving that most of all. It feels silly though bc I'm grieving my imagination so to speak.

The grief for my aunt is more complicated as she's still around and I know she doesn't like me.

She says she loves me but I think what she really means is she's attached to being an authority figure over me. If she can't have that then she wants nothing.

I used to try to mend the relationship at times, talk through the problems, etc but she really doesn't want to solve anything, she just wants to be right.

I don't grieve my father at all as I have no love lost for someone who could abandon their 3 yr old child whose mother died. I know without a doubt that I'm better off without him in my life, and I don't care what anyone says, I OWE HIM NOTHING.

You aren't alone in your feelings of guilt,grief, etc. and I hope that brings some measure of comfort

Oh and violetsky, never let anyone who chose differently make you feel weak. It takes strength to establish and maintain boundaries, especially with parents and other family members.

They genuinely don't make me feel weak, but it isn't nice to think others view you that way.

I have genuinely surprised myself at how strong I actually am after estranging.

A lifetime of being told I was difficult, worthless, would never amount to anything, unlikely unlovable and nit good enough.

If only I had known sooner that I didn't have to tolerat that or let it dictate my self worth.

I'm not a perfect human some days are hard, some days are emotional some days are stressful etc

I'm almost..... normal lol

I pointed out the sample sizes Mia because when they are relatively small for me, that makes it unreasonable to suggest that they demonstrate that most EAC estrange because of abuse.

Sample size is usually taken into account when considering the
outcome and conclusions of sociological surveys. Is it a quantitative or qualitative survey for example.

Yes, rejecting data that doesn't conform to one's beliefs is confirmation bias, but questioning data that has been presented to support a particular argument or point of view that someone, in this case me, found wanting is entering into discussion/debate.