Do abusive people know they are abusive?

Usually a victim wakes up to it after a considerable time with their hand stuck in the fire, saying "Ouch, ouch, ouch!" and hoping the fire will stop.

Amongst the psychobabble there is the theory that people bestow much higher value onto something they have to work very hard at, whether it is worth it or not.

The trouble is, children can't walk away.

In response to your post @ 16.15 Stiller I agree with MissA.

Even abuse can be subjective. What someone regards as abusive behaviour may not be viewed as abuse by someone else.

I've read posts about the experiences that some had with their mothers for example that they view as abusive. I had the same with my mum but would never have classed her as an abuser.

I also agree with you MissA when you ask what's the point of trying to get an abuser to say they were wrong and you were right. They abused you, you know they were wrong to do it and you know you are right to refuse to allow it happen any longer.

Your friend is right Chewbacca and reminds me of a quote of Martin Luther 'society is like a drunken man, having fallen off one side of the horse gets back on and falls off the other side'.

No they can't Kate that's true but they can walk away when they're adults.

No, children are all the more vulnerable to the havoc their parents reap.

Plus, we are all bound by wanting to believe things might turn out right.

There are lots of examples just on this site, among normal, everyday people.

Lovers who pay no rent, sulk, try to control
Parents who do it to their children, and children who do it to their parents.
Bosses, work colleagues, next door neighbours.

The list is endless.

Ugh paddyann54 you dodged a bullet there.

It's a mess alright.

VioletSky
I recognise so much of what you have said. My mother wouldn’t believe me when I told her I’d been sexually assaulted by a member of our family. She threw me out of the house. I was nineteen so not a child, but that hurt me very, very much. I know how you feel about what your mother said to you about keeping quiet about that awful event.

@Smileless,

Your point goes back to my first comment. When abuse is subjective, the ONLY opinion that matters is the person on the receiving end of the behavior. It’s another reason why it is completely and totally offensive when people say things like “my mother did such and such too and I’d never estrange. It’s wrong.” Or when the moral posturing comes in the form of “a decent person wouldn’t walk away from a loving parent. I dealt with worse with my mother or MIL and I still took care of them until their last day”. By trying to frame another person’s experiences, feelings, and life decisions strictly through the prism of our own one can easily miss the mark on recognizing said behavior in themselves. It is what they are used to/have dealt with, so it is easy to dismiss when others say they suffered abuse at their hands—regardless of the form. My mum would claim to have been a loving MIL. The truth is her actions were so far from loving and kind that even if she did love my wife, it wouldn’t change the nature of her bullying behavior. It was abusive, no matter what she says. No matter what her inner feelings were.

It is.
Then apart from all the abusers, there are all the methods they employ. I've told before about someone I knew in his 20s and engaged.

He would come home at half ten to his mum weeping, with her head in her hands, and his dad absolutely seething at what "he had done" to upset his mum.

One night he came home and his dad punched him as soon as he walked through the door.

Perhaps she was just a worrier, perhaps it was planned and deliberate.

maddyone

VioletSky
I recognise so much of what you have said. My mother wouldn’t believe me when I told her I’d been sexually assaulted by a member of our family. She threw me out of the house. I was nineteen so not a child, but that hurt me very, very much. I know how you feel about what your mother said to you about keeping quiet about that awful event.

If you ever need to talk, I will always listen. Inbox message or I can give you my email

stiller why are you questioning smileless?
It is a discussion between everyone.

As you say, you so not need to justify the reasons you did or didn't estrange.

Nobody has said you have to.

They are totally self absorbed. My 'father' never apologised because he didn't think he'd done anything wrong. Even when his son took his own life.

That’s very kind Violet

MissAdventure

stiller why are you questioning smileless?
It is a discussion between everyone.

As you say, you so not need to justify the reasons you did or didn't estrange.

Nobody has said you have to.

I didn’t realize you were a moderator, and that there were specific ways you personally would like us all to engage. I am free to comment as I sit fit. My comments are in line with the discussion. Why are you questioning my engagement on the topic of discussion? This is a discussion board. I am discussing. Feel free to read or to ignore, but please do not presume to dictate my posts.

I asked a question.
It's fine if you don't choose to answer.
Curiosity killed the cat, and all that.

And for the record, I am not “justifying” to anyone any decision I made. I am discussing my situation because it is pertinent, same as anyone else. Please stop being so unpleasant. Smileless can engage or not, but I cannot see how that concerns you.

I see through passive aggression quite well ftr

No I don't agree Stiller that when abuse is subjective the only person whose opinion matters, is the one on the receiving end. I can see that for you, that is the case but it isn't for me.

I don't understand why you go on to talk about moral posturing, as I haven't seen any examples of that here. Or why in response to my earlier post you have said "it is easy to dismiss when others say they suffered abuse at their hands - regardless of the form".

I haven't dismissed anyone whose said they suffered abuse, and I may be wrong but that appears to be what you're suggesting. If it is, I find your suggestion rather offensive.

I wasn’t accusing you specifically of those things; I was referencing some of the commonly said statements with regard to people walking away from familial ties when there are disputes about what constitutes abuse. That dispute will often lead to one party placing the value judgement of “wrong” on the manner in which the person on the receiving end of the behavior walks away. The overall point was that if someone feels behavior was abuse, whatever manner they choose to walk away is fine for them. The other party doesn’t have to like or accept it, but it doesn’t mean it’s wrong. If you disagree, that is fine. We’re all entitled to our differing opinions. But seeing as how this is a discussion board, I find it prudent to offer the opposite perspective in this case. That’s what discussion boards are for.

Thank you for the clarification Stiller.

I see through passive aggression quite well ftr

We all do Stiller; unfortunately we've had a lot of it lately so we're becoming quite expert at spotting it and calling it out when we see it.

We've certainly had more than our fair share lately haven't we Chewbacca.

Does every thread have to turn into an argument?

Can't we just disagree on some things without there being "some sort of agenda" that means people are wrong and making it personal

Can't we just disagree on some things without there being "some sort of agenda" that means people are wrong and making it personal

What do you mean exactly? What "agenda" and who "personally"?