Do abusive people know they are abusive?

I wouldn't doubt for one minute that in the case of estrangement, at least one "side" (for want of a better word) has tried and tried before giving up contact.

For someone who doesn't normally stray on to these forums Doodledog that was a particularly insightful and erudite post! Some very relevant and well articulated points made there.

I have never seen it stated that walking away from a familial relationship without an explanation or trying to make it work when there's been abuse, was wrong. It's when there's been no abuse that doing so seems wrong.

Not all victims of abuse become abusers and not all abusers were once victims.

Who is judging the unknown intentions of others?

By what criteria?

Sorry vs, but for my taste this seems like another 'how long is a piece of string' question.
I hope you enjoy it, and find some satisfaction from asking it.

I shall be washing my hair whilst the weather is a little cooler

I thought this post had posted earlier in the discussion. I must not have pressed the post message button properly.

I hope people don't think I'm trying to derail.
That was not the intention (no pun!)

With my 'father' I don't believe he knew nor cared that he was abusive. He looked after himself. Smart clothes, alcohol, cigarettes, other women, beatings for my mother, my sister and once me, neglected children. My mother got money to feed and clothe us when he had looked after himself first.

Sounds familiar Kate sorry you had to deal with that

You too VS.

Good posts Doodledog and Smileless.
I think my mother knew she was behaving badly but I’m not sure she would have recognised it as abuse. Sometimes she probably did, when she smiled because she knew she’d upset me, but other times I don’t think she’d have thought it was abuse. It was. It was emotional abuse.

That's awful Kate and does support the view that whether they know or not, despite seeing the damage they do, they simply don't care .

I wonder if people have brief glimpses of their abusive behaviour every now and then?
The person I knew had periods of extreme self loathing.

The trouble was trying to decide if that was yet another manipulative tactic, or genuine.

Exactly Smileless. It's all about them.

MissA. Maybe. The week before my father died, he said he had cried for hours but he didn't say over what. Too late mate.

@Smileless

And what of those instances where one party disagrees that abuse was even present? Who gets to be the final decider of when simply walking away is ‘wrong’? Disagreement on what constitutes abuse is common. So who is the moral authority on the manner in which an adult makes a major life decision to bring peace and happiness back in their life by eliminating an unrepentant stressor? Some would feel—and I’m inclined to agree—that in such an instance the decision to leave that relationship in whatever manner that person chooses is the right way.

Everyone gets to decide to do exactly what they feel needs to be done.
That doesn't mean the other party has to smile and agree.

The physical stuff stopped for me when I went to school, I don't know if there was a concern raised or not.

Or it may be that that's around the time my stepbrother came into my life. Its his story but she was awful to him and eventually pushed him out. He estranged for a long time too but now has a distant relationship.

When he went, that's when life became hell for me.

I think that's where scapegoating is highlighted, using another person as a scapegoat for all the things that go wrong in life.

I was blamed eventually for my stepbrother being out of the picture. My mother let my child self believe I caused my grandmother's death from cancer. She told everyone I was a drug addict because I had my drink spiked at 18 and she thought it was my fault for going out. She told me I shouldn't tell anyone because they would think me dirty when I told her of sexual abuse and then when I attempted suicide from lack of support, threw away all the letters about counselling etc and told me I'd embarrassed her. Then when I finally got myself on track and was doing well in college and really trying to be the good daughter she wanted, she threw me out.

It is hard to understand how she could justify any of that but if she believed it all happened just because I am me... and I deserved it...

I don't know, it's hard

Just reading back on Doodledog's excellent post @ 15.31 and this bit struck me as particularly interesting:
They were incapable of seeing that they were the common denominator in all of this, so were miserable a lot of the time. It would have been easier for them if they could have taken responsibility for their actions and tried to do something about their behaviour, but I think that's a big part of the disorder - they just can't do that.

And I wonder if there's been any research on why this is? Are some people "magnets" (for want of a better way of putting it) for attracting certain behaviours from others; whether that's physical, mental or emotional? Or is it that a person isn't able to change their behaviour pattern to a more healthy and productive pattern and simply keeps repeating it, always hoping for a different outcome? When I was in a bit of a quandary about something recently, and couldn't see which path to take, a wise friend said to me: If you keep doing what you're doing: you'll keep getting what you're getting. And, of course, she was right.

That's terrible VS.

There is no point, really, in my opinion, to try and get an abuser to say that they were wrong and you were right.

It's a bit like putting your hand in a fire, and pondering whether a lighter or matched caused it, while you sit there being burnt.

Just take your hand out.

The fire is just doing what fires do; it isn't going to stop.
Better to walk away before it consumes you.

It's a bit like putting your hand in a fire, and pondering whether a lighter or matched caused it, while you sit there being burnt.
Just take your hand out.

Perfect analogy and perfect advice!

I really like that analogy MissA

That's definitely been a large part of my issue.

I should have walked away much sooner.

Maybe I would have, but I had children and wanted them to have grandparents. I truly believed they wouldn't be like that with them, that there was something wrong with me to have had so many bad things happen.

I was wrong but thankfully my children appear to be unscathed.

Maybe I need to forgive myself... I just didn't know. If an abusive person doesn't know they are abusive, how does a victim wake up to ìt so easily

I'm glad I finally did

Thank you to everyone who has responded, whether that was easy or difficult to do.

It has been appreciated

MissAdventure

Everyone gets to decide to do exactly what they feel needs to be done.
That doesn't mean the other party has to smile and agree.

I can agree on the front that each person has a right to their feelings. I guess my issue with the overly simplistic placement of value judgements such as ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ is that they presume that there is one answer instead of it simply being a matter of perception. You may not like the manner in which a relationship ended; doesn’t make it wrong.

My first boyfriend when I was 15 told me his Dad hit his mum,quite regularly "but only when she deserved it" He stopped being my boyfriend that day ,and when my dad asked and I told him why he said he wa very proud that I had told the boy why he wa wrong to think hitting anyone was right under any circumstances and pleased I had told him never to come back .
I heard many years later that he was a wife beater,presumably because his wife "deserved it"

MissAdventure

There is no point, really, in my opinion, to try and get an abuser to say that they were wrong and you were right.

It's a bit like putting your hand in a fire, and pondering whether a lighter or matched caused it, while you sit there being burnt.

Just take your hand out.

The fire is just doing what fires do; it isn't going to stop.
Better to walk away before it consumes you.

I agree with this.

Abusers cause hurt and chaos wherever they go. Whether they set out to do so or react to triggers laid down in infancy doesn't lessen the pain for their victims. Nor does knowing whether the abuser feels guilty about it, has no idea they did it or just doesn't care - it still hurts.