Do abusive people know they are abusive?

DiamondLily @ 05.29; good question! I would think that there has to be some degree of self recognition there, particularly if it's been drawn to their attention. My only personal experience of interaction with a PA was extremely frustrating and the relationship was ultimately destroyed by their behaviour. I couldn't work out if it was just a really bad character flaw or if there was something else going on in their dim and distant past and PA was just a part of it. I did say to them, on several occasions, how it made me feel manipulated and controlled; those quietly muttered one word quips - always said as they were walking away, the silent treatment or refusing to answer and then pretending that "they didn't hear" me.

You're always on the back foot with a PA, the games and the tactics change constantly; countless attempts to sort it out with them but I was always met with the same disingenuous responses; "I don't know what you mean!" "But that's not what I actually meant, you always take things the wrong way!" (but it was what they'd actually said)"

I've learnt since that it's all about them being in control of a situation; they want you to know that they're furious with you about something but, for whatever reason, they can't articulate it and so they vent their anger by making you angry instead; now they look like the reasonable one and the victim looks unreasonable.
My ex was absolutely desperate for approval and that manifested itself in many ways but I figured that, even in anger, he had to convince himself (and others if they were around) that he was passive, non confrontational, easy going. He wasn't; he was very aggressive; he just expressed it differently.

Some abusers can be insightful when it's all explained to them, but others can't learn.

Great post, Chewbacca.

PA is difficult to pin down, as it manifests in different ways depending on the situation.

The colleague I mentioned upthread was also PA in many ways - one was to go off 'sick' when she didn't want to do something. Sometimes it was when a meeting had something on the agenda that might result in her having to change the way she did something (she hated updating her practices). She just wouldn't go to the meeting, then claim that the changes had been made behind her back, she had never agreed to them, and it 'wasn't fair'.

At other times she would imply that if she had to take part in something she didn't want to do, it would make her stressed. We all knew that she regularly took months off with stress, and that we would have to pick up her workload, so the threat was used to stop anyone asking her to pull her weight. There were other examples, but you get the gist.

It was all done by casting herself as the victim. She claimed that she was bullied, that people behaved selfishly (as opposed to assertively), that she was 'too nice' to argue. She claimed that people took advantage of her 'good nature', and preferred the silent treatment, or the 'you just do what you like - I don't want an argument' approach, and literally walking away. Claiming to hate conflict is often another refuge of the passive aggressive - they cause it everywhere they go, but won't accept responsibility for it, as in their minds, anyone who stands up to them or disagrees is picking on them.

The truth was that people walked on eggshells around her, as she threatened to report people (including management) for bullying. People liked her when they first met her, as she presented as pleasant and kindly, (if a bit needy) but she was very unpopular with those who'd worked with her for any length of time and could see through her. She would pick up on that, and it fed her paranoia - it was a really difficult situation, but entirely of her own making.

There is literally no behavior I’ve ever exhibited toward my mother that could objectively pass as aggressive, let alone abuse so no. There is a difference between unwanted, unsolicited, persistent behavior and a flat out lying. I think you know very well that in the context of this discussion we are talking about persistent unwanted behavior directed at an individual. Play all the word games you want; won’t change the truth of the matter.

To add Normandygirl,

You don’t even have a behavior from me to reference so not sure what the basis of your straw man argument is. You know my mum? You know she felt humiliated? You know she’s accused me of abuse? You have to actually have a reference point for your post to be relevant.

Stiller

There is literally no behavior I’ve ever exhibited toward my mother that could objectively pass as aggressive, let alone abuse so no. There is a difference between unwanted, unsolicited, persistent behavior and a flat out lying. I think you know very well that in the context of this discussion we are talking about persistent unwanted behavior directed at an individual. Play all the word games you want; won’t change the truth of the matter.

Who is that post addressing, Stiller?

Chewbacca

DiamondLily @ 05.29; good question! I would think that there has to be some degree of self recognition there, particularly if it's been drawn to their attention. My only personal experience of interaction with a PA was extremely frustrating and the relationship was ultimately destroyed by their behaviour. I couldn't work out if it was just a really bad character flaw or if there was something else going on in their dim and distant past and PA was just a part of it. I did say to them, on several occasions, how it made me feel manipulated and controlled; those quietly muttered one word quips - always said as they were walking away, the silent treatment or refusing to answer and then pretending that "they didn't hear" me.

You're always on the back foot with a PA, the games and the tactics change constantly; countless attempts to sort it out with them but I was always met with the same disingenuous responses; "I don't know what you mean!" "But that's not what I actually meant, you always take things the wrong way!" (but it was what they'd actually said)"

I've learnt since that it's all about them being in control of a situation; they want you to know that they're furious with you about something but, for whatever reason, they can't articulate it and so they vent their anger by making you angry instead; now they look like the reasonable one and the victim looks unreasonable.
My ex was absolutely desperate for approval and that manifested itself in many ways but I figured that, even in anger, he had to convince himself (and others if they were around) that he was passive, non confrontational, easy going. He wasn't; he was very aggressive; he just expressed it differently.

Yes, my ex was the same. Trying to control everything and everyone, by portraying himself as a perpetual victim.

Then acting like he didn't know what he was doing.

Endless whining neediness. . Gaslighting. Trying to instill guilt or get pity.. ?

It's wearing, it causes a loss of respect, and it trashes a relationship.

People were fooled for a long time by him - many believed he was a victim, mainly of me lol ?

It was only after I left him people saw my ex for what he really was..?

Doodledog - summed up perfectly. I don't think they realise how obvious they are though.?

No, I spent more time than I should have wondering whether my colleague was out and out calculating or whether she believed her own publicity. I never arrived at an answer though.

DD - it took me many years to sort out exactly what was going on with my ex, his passive aggressiveness, and me.

When I did, I finally did give him his much-wanted victim status - I left home and filed for divorce...?

Sounds like a nightmare having a work colleague like that DD.

Giving a positive and 'nice' first impression is often the way with people who are PA. They can ensnare you and can make you believe that it's everyone else whose a problem, when in fact the opposite is true.

I think you could be right DL and they really don't know how obvious they are because there always seems to be genuine shock and incomprehension if and when they're called out on it.

So he finally got the victim status he craved DL.

Yes, one of the underlying assumptions with PA behaviour is that the perpetrator is more intelligent than the victim (or thinks they are). It can only work if the manipulation isn't spotted, which of course it often is.

That's another reason why it is so annoying - not only are they trying to manipulate you into doing whatever they wanted, they are taking you for a fool, too!

It was to Normandygirl.

And what's even more annoying is when they initially succeed in fooling you DD.

That's the mind bending thing about trying to work/live/communicate with PAs; you always somehow end up feeling like you're "the baddie". And they put on such a good show of being hurt and wounded because "they never meant it like that" and you're the one to blame for the bad atmosphere because "you twisted things".

One thing that my ex used to do, every. single. time. was, if we had a disagreement of opinion about something (usually politics), rather than discuss it like grown ups, he'd walk away, muttering quietly, under his breath, "naturally" and leave the room. When asked why he did that, rather than discuss things like an adult, his stock response was always "Look, I'm trying to be nice here; I'm a nice person, I don't want to argue with you". He was right: he didn't want to argue - he wanted his own way but didn't have the mental or emotional intelligence or maturity to know how to get it. And he was wrong: he wasn't a nice person - he was a manipulative, narcissistic bully. Eurgh! Well rid!

Chewbacca - that's how they try to flourish. People used to think I controlled my ex (ho, ho), but that was because I'm upfront and say what I think.

He sat looking sad, with his victim face on, trying to get someone to feel sorry for him. And sometimes succeeded.?

I do hate mind games.?

Stiller

To add Normandygirl,

You don’t even have a behavior from me to reference so not sure what the basis of your straw man argument is. You know my mum? You know she felt humiliated? You know she’s accused me of abuse? You have to actually have a reference point for your post to be relevant.

Please read my post again. I said that I personally would not label your behaviour towards your mother as abuse because you did not intend her harm. I was pointing out that, by your own definition, that the label of abuse is valid when the recipient feels abused, then your mother could make the same claim if she felt that your behaviour made her feel that way.
I feel that all bad behaviour should be defined by what the intention was, not by what the recipient " feels" it to be. An example would be the difference between causing an accidental death as opposed to a premeditated murder. The result is the same loss of life but they would be defined very differently because of what the intention was judged to be.
My intention was not to offend you but to disagree with your definition of abuse.

Just reading through the whole thread.

With reference to the discussion on Passive Aggressive behaviour, I don't think someone is necessarily always Passive Aggressive. Some may well be, and may use it as a "tactic" to get their own way etc. for whatever reason - learned behaviour, previous success, part of their personality, whatever.

However some might find themselves slipping into it if they are in a situation that they feel unsure in, fearful of consequences, not sure how to address etc. I think for instance that people who are "walking on eggshells" in a relationship (that gets mentioned a lot on estrangement threads doesn't it!) might well find themselves slipping into Passive Aggressive tactics to try to get a message over - "hinting", indirect comments etc - trying to get a point over without creating a big shouty escalation or provoking full estrangement. It may not work for them, it may make things worse, but when driven by fear and egg shell walking it could easily happen. They may never use that tactic in other areas of their life?

I'm not saying it is right, just that I can see how it could so easily happen in specific situations.

That's the trouble with perceived abuse - it's subjective.

If the same thing happened to 2 people, one might feel abused, the other not.

If it boils down to feeling abused means it is abuse, then surely anything could be abuse?

Some people are obviously more sensitive than others.

It's difficult.?

Madgran - yes, I hadn't thought that fear of estrangement might bring forward that way of acting.

It's horrible, really, that people sometimes, especially those that have done nothing wrong, have to live in dread of being cut off from others.?

Fair point Madgran and, for some, I suppose it's used when, in the dim and distant past, any disagreements of opinions have resulted in full on slanging matches, or worse, so PA must seem a safer option to them. Nevertheless, it's horrendously difficult for colleagues, neighbours, friends etc to deal with later down the line; as Doodledog described upthread.

Having said that, I am not in anyway suggesting that there aren't people who just use PA behaviour all the time or in anyway "dismissing" the difficult relationships described above that some of you have had to deal with (just in case my comment came over like that!)

I also someone on my team who definitely used Passive Aggressive tactics to get what she wanted ...permanently the victim, denial of what she had said/done despite incontrovertible evidence,.I recognise much of what you describe re your colleague Doodledog!!

Chewbacca

Fair point Madgran and, for some, I suppose it's used when, in the dim and distant past, any disagreements of opinions have resulted in full on slanging matches, or worse, so PA must seem a safer option to them. Nevertheless, it's horrendously difficult for colleagues, neighbours, friends etc to deal with later down the line; as Doodledog described upthread.

Agreed Chewbacca.

I understand that anyone can be PA at times - things like clearing the throat and pointedly looking (instead of saying 'there's a queue') is Passive Aggressive, and also that sometimes the alternative is to be constantly at odds with a difficult person.

But when the reason for the behaviour is to get out of doing what you are paid for, or to otherwise make life easier for yourself at the expense of others, there is no excuse. It might achieve the end result that the perpetrator wants, but setting out to 'get one over' on people and doing it in such a way that the victims can't even confront them about it on an equal footing has to be premeditated. The notion that anyone who disagrees or tries to achieve a different result is 'unkind', or 'a bully' means that the perpetrator is starting out from a position where their own superiority or 'rightness' is just assumed. They aren't interested in what is 'fair', or what is 'right' (where those things apply), or what others would prefer to happen, but just in getting their own way, and having that 'validated' by those in authority.

Where there is a difference of opinion, everyone thinks that they are right, at least at the start, but in adult situations there can be negotiation if everyone states their case. When one person cries foul, or goes off sick, or complains to the boss (or the union if the boss is the one who has upset them), and claims that everything is personal, however, it is impossible to move forward without life becoming a long and tedious battle.

It can be a form of spousal abuse, much as gaslighting can.

It's never physical, it's just this drip-drip of victimhood from another.?

Tedious at best, draining at worst.

These people are best ignored or removed from "your" life. It worked for me.

Even on forums, it sometimes occurs, although easy to spot if you've " lived the dream" in real life. I bypass it.