Do abusive people know they are abusive?

I think we go into things too much sometimes instead of making the best if a situation that can’t be altered. You’re a very lucky person to go through life without problems. I regularly had the board rubber thrown at my head for talking in class, it was the norm, thankfully I only got the ruler over my knuckles once, luckily I didn’t bear a grudge, none of us did, we got on with it and just learnt to shut up more. If I had told my parents, which I didn’t, they would have said why weren’t you doing as you were told. They never raised a finger to me, but they wouldn’t have liked me being naughty as they saw it, not respecting my elders. How times change.

When I was at primary school (late 50's) the maths teacher there devised a way to make children learn their multiplication tables,

We had to say them, right the way through, by rote, every day, but then she would fire a random sum at us to ask for the answer.

If we didn't answer correctly, we would get walloped across the knuckles with a wooden ruler.?

Not the right way to reach, obviously, but jeez. I can still recite my times tables and do the sums in my head - so it was effective lol ?

Doodledog and DiamondLily all you say makes sense!

It's never physical, it's just this drip-drip of victimhood

This! Absolutely this! Permanently and perpetually a victim and therefore to be treated with kid gloves at all times, tiptoed around and never, never to be held accountable for what they've said or done. And to make it worse, he'd gaslight me later by rewriting the event so that it bore virtually no resemblance to what had actually happened! I understand now why he had to do that; But I'm cross with myself that I thought at the time that I could "mend him". I couldn't, he was beyond my help. He was too broken.

Were we with the same bloke Diamond?

And if your teacher's name began with Mrs W, did we go to the same school?!

Not Mrs. Willoughby??

Blind me, we never had teachers like that at school. Our history teacher was a very large lady and used to threaten to sit on anyone who wouldn't behave.

<<snort>> regrettably not MissA!

Her name was Mrs Smith and she was ferocious,...?

Chewbacca

^It's never physical, it's just this drip-drip of victimhood^

This! Absolutely this! Permanently and perpetually a victim and therefore to be treated with kid gloves at all times, tiptoed around and never, never to be held accountable for what they've said or done. And to make it worse, he'd gaslight me later by rewriting the event so that it bore virtually no resemblance to what had actually happened! I understand now why he had to do that; But I'm cross with myself that I thought at the time that I could "mend him". I couldn't, he was beyond my help. He was too broken.

Were we with the same bloke Diamond?

I doubt it, you can’t have been that unlucky. I did 30+ years and then walked...?

My teacher's name was Mrs. Titterington. The only teacher's name I can remember; I wonder why!!!

@Normandygirl,

As I said, were not going to agree on intent.

If one persists in directing behavior toward someone that the individual has objected to, they are an abusive person no matter the intent. One cannot be surprised or blame anyone but themselves for the other walking away or cutting them off if they haven’t the self-control to respect the boundaries of another person. Whether or not one has a thousand excuses or goes on about how the “intent” was not to cause harm does not change the truth of the matter. Do not persist in behavior toward other people that they object to or accept that the behavior and the choice to continuously engage is the root cause of one labelling you abusive or walking away. It’s actually much more simple than some would like to believe, but it would require the type of accountability that abusive people typically do not hold themselves to, hence the ceasing of said relationship.

I think some do, some can’t reflect on themselves. I worked with abused teenagers in my 20’s and 30’s - some of the abuse they faced, felt like their abuser enjoyed and planned it.

Some people are cruel, some enjoy it but the effects seem to be the same and lifelong either way.

Also, manipulative relatives with NPD can’t ‘feel’ properly, so don’t feel shame or guilt the way us ordinary folk do. Some are just out and out sociopaths and don’t care nor feel.

Having said all that, a good life with healing can be had. With psychotherapy I have found that way I have been able to ‘take the temperature down’ of the pain. It will always pop up again but having worked on it in therapy, it’s effects lessen over time.

That's the important thing about this thread.

People genuinely don't recognise their own behaviour as abusive.

They go to great lengths to justify it.

The only real way to highlight abusive behaviour is to turn around on them and shine a light on it... try to show them that they don't like what they themselves dish out.

That doesnt make for a good relationship though

"a good life with healing can be had" I have come across people who have managed to do just that Sparkly and they had been able to reflect on themselves which enabled them to seek the help and healing needed.

That must have been extremely stressful and upsetting work, and I do so admire those who are able to do it. As you say, some people are simply cruel and enjoy to see the pain and distress they inflict on others.

Having experienced first hand someone with NPD, I agree that they don't feel guilt or shame and yet, try very hard to absolve themselves of any and all responsibility. I wonder if sometimes that's because there is a degree of shame.

Depends on the degree of insight they have into their own behaviour and motivation and that is entirely individual and is probably variable on a spectrum - neither good or bad but simply as it is.

I left my first husband as he was abusive - he wouldn’t own it years later when I spoke to him about it. He’s had two more wives since. On his own now apparently.
He came from an abusive family - I think you can either acknowledge it and break the cycle or you can perpetuate it.

Hi Smileless2012 you are right people who are narcissists have a deep narcissistic wound, based on shame and loos of pride. This is why they have the need to project shame and humiliation onto others. And why it’s best not to challenge them.

The work was challenging but also some of the most rewarding I have done. To see say a young man or woman aged 20 sail off to live in their own flat, working or attending college, at the end of their stay, was priceless.

SparklyGrandma

I think some do, some can’t reflect on themselves. I worked with abused teenagers in my 20’s and 30’s - some of the abuse they faced, felt like their abuser enjoyed and planned it.

Some people are cruel, some enjoy it but the effects seem to be the same and lifelong either way.

Also, manipulative relatives with NPD can’t ‘feel’ properly, so don’t feel shame or guilt the way us ordinary folk do. Some are just out and out sociopaths and don’t care nor feel.

Having said all that, a good life with healing can be had. With psychotherapy I have found that way I have been able to ‘take the temperature down’ of the pain. It will always pop up again but having worked on it in therapy, it’s effects lessen over time.

This is excellent and I agree, especially the last part. Seeing my wife and children everyday, us living a happy life together, is pretty much all I need. My children aren’t missing out on a thing and my cup is full with my best friend and life partner. Life can be good if you focus on those who love you the most. Glad I chose our happiness. And yes, therapy helped me to see that I was putting myself in the “middle” as there cannot truly be a middle when it comes to a husband supporting his wife over those who would mistreat her. Can’t day I’ve felt pain from my estrangement for many years now.

VioletSky

That's the important thing about this thread.

People genuinely don't recognise their own behaviour as abusive.

They go to great lengths to justify it.

The only real way to highlight abusive behaviour is to turn around on them and shine a light on it... try to show them that they don't like what they themselves dish out.

That doesnt make for a good relationship though

Hence people walking away. No shame in that either.

Absolutely DC you don't have to perpetuate the cycle and it always really annoys me if an abuser uses the fact they themselves were abused, as some kind of defence and/or explanation.

If you were abused you know what that feels like, so when you abuse someone else you know what that feels like for them.

I can see how rewarding your work must have been Sparkly you should be proud knowing what a difference you were able to make to people's lives .

DC64

I left my first husband as he was abusive - he wouldn’t own it years later when I spoke to him about it. He’s had two more wives since. On his own now apparently.
He came from an abusive family - I think you can either acknowledge it and break the cycle or you can perpetuate it.

This is so important.

I have also seen evidence that people can recognise that they were abused but are unable to recognise they are continuing that legacy.

It may be down to how they justify their behaviour again

Which is quite honestly, painful to watch.

SparklyGrandma

I think some do, some can’t reflect on themselves. I worked with abused teenagers in my 20’s and 30’s - some of the abuse they faced, felt like their abuser enjoyed and planned it.

Some people are cruel, some enjoy it but the effects seem to be the same and lifelong either way.

Also, manipulative relatives with NPD can’t ‘feel’ properly, so don’t feel shame or guilt the way us ordinary folk do. Some are just out and out sociopaths and don’t care nor feel.

Having said all that, a good life with healing can be had. With psychotherapy I have found that way I have been able to ‘take the temperature down’ of the pain. It will always pop up again but having worked on it in therapy, it’s effects lessen over time.

Thank you for doing such an amazing job for abused teenagers. I wish I had had understanding and support as a teen.

Saying that though I have an amazing circle of friends and family and this may have been the path I needed to walk to get here, even with all the ups and downs

I think a lot of abusers are inadequate in some way, so need to control their partner. They’re frightened of loosing them, so ostracise them from friends and family. As the friends and family can see straight through them.
Not sure about mothers who bully, that must be a control thing as well. Not liking the dil is classic. Being worried about loosing their sons. But they must justify their behaviour in their own minds.
Interesting post.