hugshelp
That's heartbreaking about the hospital Diddydot I'm glad you found he strength to see it as a wake up call.
The last time I was in hospital my ES was very angry that my family let him know - he didn't need the stress.. He didn't visit which was fine—he lives a long way away, but blaming me for being in hospital again seemed a rather odd reaction. I'd much rather not have been there. It's one of the things he holds against me. Being ill too often.
I do know what you mean onwardsandupwards. I sometimes think my tendency to want to keep giving and mydesire to keep the peace has a lot to do with the way my ES sees me. I have a friend who has always been very shouty and blunt. Her son and daughter both estranged her very briefly. But she had no truck with their nonsense, gave them a sharp talking to, and told them it was their loss. They came scurrying right back!
As you say Allsorts it's so easy to blame ourselves and make excuses for them. The spa break sounds wonderful.
Hope you feel better after a good rest Yogin.
Back to some unpacking for me today.
Thats interesting Hugshelp, here's me being all non confrontational....I've never liked rows. Yet my friend actually told her son that he ruined her life a few months ago- I heard her! and he spent the entire Christmas there with his kids What's going on? Am I not nasty enough, or something? 
Obviously I'm happy for her. Might ask her for relationship tips!
Hope you feel better Yogin! 
Some nasty bugs around!
So sorry about your son's attitude Hugshelp, thats so hurtful. No one chooses to be ill and at least you are accepting treatment
(Some other kids I know of would be grateful if their Mother actually accepted help for medical stuff)
Morning all. It's miserable here, raining and grey skies which kind of suit my mood which isn't a good thing. Feeling a little better but fed up and bored.
We're the people we are and parented the way we did Onward. Would estrangement have been avoided if we'd been different people and different parents? I doubt it, because our EAC have become the people they are.
I'm a 'no nonsense' person hugs, who calls out behaviour I find unacceptable but always with an explanation of why. As parents, we encouraged our boys to be open and honest about how they felt and what was worrying them. Taught them the importance of reciprocating that approach, of listening and acknowledging how others feel and taking responsibility if their behaviour had caused any upset and/or ill feeling.
We've always been big on communication, never shying away from an uncomfortable conversation. Nothing was out of bounds, so to have been told that our ES had 'issues' never rang true, as those 'issues' whatever they are, never materialised until his wife was expecting their first child.
What if we'd handled the estrangement differently, would that have made any difference? Well Yogin and I had very different approaches. She tried reaching out, attempting to maintain some form of contact but to no avail; we did the opposite. We were told to stay away, so for the most part, we did.
I agree with what you say about low contact Onward. That at least enables GC and their GP's to have a relationship with very little contact between the AC and his/her parents.
It's been asked so many times on the support threads, what example are they teaching their own children. That any relationship is disposable and rather than seeking solutions to problems, just get up and walk away. Walk away from your parents, your extended family, your H or wife and who knows, even your own children when the going gets tough.
We are all imperfect people who did their best to raise their imperfect children. Mr. S. and I got things wrong and we made mistakes and never claimed we hadn't, but we don't deserve to have been treated this way.
Before being estranged our ES emailed us, asking for time to enable them to adjust to parenthood, which of course we gave them. He said "we'll never stop you from seeing ..... because we know how much you love him".
I thought at the time that it was an odd thing to say, I mean the thought of never being allowed to see our only GC never entered my head. But at that time, I'd never heard of estrangement, never come across anyone who'd experienced it, or if they had, was too embarrassed and/or ashamed to admit it.
Looking back, I think way back in my mind there was the faint sound of an alarm bell ringing but I ignored it. What could we have done anyway? What could any of us have done when as so many of us have experienced, our GC are ushered out of our lives by our EAC, not because they need to protect them from us, not because we are horrible abusive people, but simply because they can.
A spa break sounds lovely Allsorts, you go for it and enjoy. I can picture you now, sitting in a jaccuzzi hot tub, with a glass of bubbles in your hand
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Sorry you're unwell Yogin this dreadful lurgy does seem to drag on and on so take it easy and get that lovely son of yours to take Joey for his walkies.
Morning all
Sorry for the rant (but it's all true and if I've done anything wrong with ES it's putting up with too much). I need a jacuzzi too!
You don't ever have to apologise for ranting on here Onward, we've all done it and no doubt we'll do it again.
When your son was a teenager, he was old enough to make choices and decisions for himself. He was old enough to know the difference between right and wrong then, and even more so now that he's an adult.
We all have regrets, but that doesn't mean we are or should feel responsible for the wrong choices and decisions our AC make.
What your son has and continues to do to you, your GC and your d.i.l. Onward not your fault and it isn't your responsibility.
I can honestly say that for 27 years, our ES brought us nothing but joy so even now, 10 years later I still find it hard to believe that he's done what he has, that he could become the exact opposite of who and what he used to be. Unless of course he never was that person and what I thought was his relationship with us and us with him, was never real.
Take care Whiff. I hope you can get your pain under control. It's been a difficult time for you helping your friend with her grief and reliving your own x.
Glad you've managed to dodge the dreaded lurgy Madgran. Enjoy your 
and find something good to watch on tv.
Oh DSL I'm going to miss you. It's hard to say goodbye to dear friends but I can't think of a better reason for seeing one go 
x
Smileless2012
Morning all. It's miserable here, raining and grey skies which kind of suit my mood which isn't a good thing. Feeling a little better but fed up and bored
We're the people we are and parented the way we did Onward. Would estrangement have been avoided if we'd been different people and different parents? I doubt it, because our EAC have become the people they are.
I'm a 'no nonsense' person hugs, who calls out behaviour I find unacceptable but always with an explanation of why. As parents, we encouraged our boys to be open and honest about how they felt and what was worrying them. Taught them the importance of reciprocating that approach, of listening and acknowledging how others feel and taking responsibility if their behaviour had caused any upset and/or ill feeling.
We've always been big on communication, never shying away from an uncomfortable conversation. Nothing was out of bounds, so to have been told that our ES had 'issues' never rang true, as those 'issues' whatever they are, never materialised until his wife was expecting their first child.
What if we'd handled the estrangement differently, would that have made any difference? Well Yogin and I had very different approaches. She tried reaching out, attempting to maintain some form of contact but to no avail; we did the opposite. We were told to stay away, so for the most part, we did.
I agree with what you say about low contact Onward. That at least enables GC and their GP's to have a relationship with very little contact between the AC and his/her parents.
It's been asked so many times on the support threads, what example are they teaching their own children. That any relationship is disposable and rather than seeking solutions to problems, just get up and walk away. Walk away from your parents, your extended family, your H or wife and who knows, even your own children when the going gets tough.
We are all imperfect people who did their best to raise their imperfect children. Mr. S. and I got things wrong and we made mistakes and never claimed we hadn't, but we don't deserve to have been treated this way.
Before being estranged our ES emailed us, asking for time to enable them to adjust to parenthood, which of course we gave them. He said "we'll never stop you from seeing ..... because we know how much you love him".
I thought at the time that it was an odd thing to say, I mean the thought of never being allowed to see our only GC never entered my head. But at that time, I'd never heard of estrangement, never come across anyone who'd experienced it, or if they had, was too embarrassed and/or ashamed to admit it.
Looking back, I think way back in my mind there was the faint sound of an alarm bell ringing but I ignored it. What could we have done anyway? What could any of us have done when as so many of us have experienced, our GC are ushered out of our lives by our EAC, not because they need to protect them from us, not because we are horrible abusive people, but simply because they can.
A spa break sounds lovely Allsorts, you go for it and enjoy. I can picture you now, sitting in a jaccuzzi hot tub, with a glass of bubbles in your hand
Sorry you're unwell Yogin
So sorry Smileless.
Horrible and grey here, just like my mood too.
It seems that everyone on the forum has tried very different approaches including reaching out and also respecting boundaries.
I am curious to know whether there are any estranged people on this forum who have done what my friend did by saying "You *** ruined my ** life, you ** !"
Wouldn't you think that people who speak that way would be more likely to estrange? Rather than kind , softly spoken folk who observe and respect boundaries??? No one here seems to be like that. Maybe we are all "too nice".
My son used to say he didn't respect me and perhaps being too nice (kind!) or unconfrontational is why. I've never been good at getting angry.
Our beloved Grandkids are taken out of our lives because our kids only care about themselves and just because they don't want to see us , they don't want their kids to and like you say, Smileless because they can.
As a kid who was denied contact with my Grandparents, cut off from Aunts, Uncles and Nieces by my mad mother, I absolutely and whole heartedly detest Estrangement and am sure it will come back to bite them on the ASS with their own kids resenting them.
I'm so sorry any of us are here. Sending you all love and
I've had some blazing rows with our DS over the years Onward, never said anything like that, never even thought it but boy oh boy have we been at loggerheads on more than one occasion.
Disagreements with ES too, prior to being estranged but not on the same level because his personality is different to his brother's. You say your son used to say he didn't respect you. Both ours have told us they respect us, and DS still says so, and yet here we are.
I have friends who enjoy a wonderful relationship with their adult sons, their partners and their children. He's an alcoholic and has been for years.
Years ago he would be verbally abusive and physically intimidating to his wife and their boys. They saw and heard things no child should, it wasn't all bad by any means but should have been a lot better.
The sons manage the situation very well. Don't stay too long when asked round so have already left when dad's had too much to drink, not that he's abusive these days or intimidating, just rather embarrasing.
I don't suppose he has any idea just how lucky he is to be a part of his sons and GC's lives. There's a lot about him to like, I'm rather fond of him myself but it doesn't stop me from wondering every now and then, especially when I see him playing with his GC, why us. Not that I'd wish this on my worse enemy.
So rather than expecting their dad to stay sober and resenting him for not being able to manage that, they've learned to manage their expectations and the time they spend with him. He may not be perfect (who is) but they love him, you can see that they do and you can see that he loves them too.
There's simply no logical explanation is there and we can drive ourselves mad trying to come up with one.
You know what a dysfunctional mother is like because you had one, and that's not you. You're not the problem Onward, your son is.
OnwardandUpward
I think I have always been " too nice" and although I have encouraged my kids to be honest, they have been brutally honest and they dont want to know how I feel. I am now having fantasies of what it would have felt like to tell ES that he ruined my life.
He also brought joy, but since he was a teenager he brought a lot of pain and abuse. I tried reasoning with him, but that failed. I have never yelled or tell them they ruined my life, but he did many times over. I know we cannot go back and do things differently- but his gambling, drug abuse, resulting mental health and other abusive behaviours have ruined my life and health, even my finances at times- and all of that was before he stopped me seeing GC. I never stood up for myself out of a fear of losing him, but I should have done it before he had kids. I do regret not being stronger.
Not being allowed to see GC is plain cruel, to us and to the kids. ES is probably happy because he's selfish and only cares about himself. He's also probably happy because he's controlling and has got his partner and kids all to himself. She used to talk to me and we got along great, but he hated that. He hated me being friends with anyone and she's not got any friends or family apart from us because of him.
He's probably now busy wrecking his kids lives by preventing them from mixing with anyone. To me that isolation is the worst thing. It's not good for child development to be isolated like that. ES is too paranoid to have friends or to allow anyone else to have friends.
Your post really resonated with me OnwardandUpward
I also feel that I have been "too nice" most of my life. I grew up with a violent and volatile father and as the eldest, spent most of my childhood trying to keep the peace and protect my siblings and mother from the worst of his temper.
Rows really distress me and I have allowed really appalling behaviour from my AC towards me to go unchallenged all their lives. I think they despise me for it tbh but I can't change who I am now.
I remember the teacher on an assertiveness course many years ago saying that "People only treat you as badly as you let them". The same teacher also deemed me " beyond help" and of course I apologised for my failure
Do your children know anything about your childhood Normandygirl? As a child, trying to keep the peace to protect your mum and siblings from the worst of your father's violent and volatile behaviour took great courage and maturity.
Your AC have taken advantage of you understandably finding rows distressing, and as a consequence allowing them to get away with unacceptable behaviour.
The teacher who saw you as being beyond help, saw only his/her failure to give you the tools you needed to learn to become assertive.
Your AC's appalling behaviour is their responsibility not yours, just like that teacher's inability to help you was theirs.
Smileless2012
I've had some blazing rows with our DS over the years Onward, never said anything like that, never even thought it but boy oh boy have we been at loggerheads on more than one occasion.
Disagreements with ES too, prior to being estranged but not on the same level because his personality is different to his brother's. You say your son used to say he didn't respect you. Both ours have told us they respect us, and DS still says so, and yet here we are.
I have friends who enjoy a wonderful relationship with their adult sons, their partners and their children. He's an alcoholic and has been for years.
Years ago he would be verbally abusive and physically intimidating to his wife and their boys. They saw and heard things no child should, it wasn't all bad by any means but should have been a lot better.
The sons manage the situation very well. Don't stay too long when asked round so have already left when dad's had too much to drink, not that he's abusive these days or intimidating, just rather embarrasing.
I don't suppose he has any idea just how lucky he is to be a part of his sons and GC's lives. There's a lot about him to like, I'm rather fond of him myself but it doesn't stop me from wondering every now and then, especially when I see him playing with his GC, why us. Not that I'd wish this on my worse enemy.
So rather than expecting their dad to stay sober and resenting him for not being able to manage that, they've learned to manage their expectations and the time they spend with him. He may not be perfect (who is) but they love him, you can see that they do and you can see that he loves them too.
There's simply no logical explanation is there and we can drive ourselves mad trying to come up with one.
You know what a dysfunctional mother is like because you had one, and that's not you. You're not the problem Onward, your son is
Thanks Smileless , I look for reason and there is none apparent.
Some (clueless people) think "oh if only they'd loved them more". I think HOW? I gave them everything I'd never had, always listened and never invalidated. Always said I loved them, supported them in whatever they did. I could go on.
So interesting about your friend, he sounds like a functional Alcoholic. He's obviously addicted to alcohol, but just functional enough to be able to maintain relationships and lucky enough to have forgiving family. Love is so important, I'm happy for anyone who has it. My friend who said those things to her son actually has a very loving family. I'm sure her son deserved it.
My Mother is extremely dysfunctional. I have spent my entire life trying to overcome the damage. I did everything not to be like her. It was still not enough. Perhaps it was her I should have estranged from so my kids didn't turn out like her? Some things might be genetic. There are so many ways of looking at it.
I'm so sorry Normandygirl. My Mother used to rage at us and I've always felt quite intimidated with rages, which is probably how I've not been able to express myself that way. I have struggled with my son's outbursts for that reason. Also, I let things go unchallenged because I couldn't deal with confrontation.
Oh no. I'm always apologising as well. I've had a lifetime of being told everything was my fault and trying to protect others from my ill mother's vitriol and mind games.
So sorry about that teacher. I don't think any one is beyond help- but you probably needed something more in depth (actual support) than a one day course. Also, it might have been their teaching at fault as they didn't teach you what you paid them to
Well thank goodness Christmas is over for another year! We’ve had a gentle time, but E reared its head when a relative sent us pictures of our EC. We’d asked to see them, but it definitely brought the sadness to the surface. Isn’t it awful when knowing/hearing nothing is easier than hearing something about your own child. We’re desperate for news….yet that news only brings more pain. Not sure I’m ready to say no just yet though.
So sorry so many on here have been feeling unwell/feeling down. Here’s to all of us getting our mojo back in 2023! And maybe jumping in a jacuzzi! Keep strong everyone. No one’s immune from some upset in their life. At least we walk this E journey together! Thank you, friends 
Normandygirl
I look at all my friends relationships with their AC's and I can't help but notice that they never hold back from criticising or berating them for even the smallest perceived misdemeanors.
A late birthday card, not calling them often enough, being with the "wrong" partner, money management etc. I have never done any of that, usually told them that I understood how busy they were, how stressful their jobs were, how it didn't matter.
Well it did matter, I was hurt when they didn't send a birthday card, I was upset when they ignored Mothers day, I was angry when their father was diagnosed with cancer and they never called to see how he was. I assumed that they would know this but I should have spelled it out to them loud and clear and I didn't. I assumed that bringing them up with all the love that I had and showing them how to treat people by example was enough, I was wrong.
I've got this wrong as well, so sorry about their Dad.
When I was ill a decade ago I remember asking my son for a drink of water and him ranting at me because he was annoyed that I asked. That month I almost committed suicide because of other things happening at the time. To be honest, he's been so cruel at times that I can't believe it or understand why, except that he takes drugs and has gone on shaman lead "trips". I think they convinced him I was evil, or something.
I'm not the one who would take drugs with kids present. Disgusted!
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