Friendship, advice and support if estrangement has affected your life.

Morning everyone. Feeling much better this morning, thank goodness. Mr. S. still struggling a bit but he started with this a couple of days after me. Had my hair cut yesterday which made me feel more human, and might even apply some makeup today!!!

I could never have done that Spring, I prefer not to know what ES's up too and to see how our GC have grown. We're all different of course and for me consigning them to the past has been the only way of coping with present, and looking forward to the future.

Our boys are so different in personality. DS was always a challenge as he constantly challenged authority and fought against the 'rules'. His brother by comparison was the complete opposite, so it was rare that we ever had words or the need to reign him in so to speak.

I don't believe we were overly critical of our DS's behaviour and attitude, but by comparison he was on the receiving end of a lot more than his brother.

Your post has reminded me of a conversation I had with DS about 6 years ago hugs, when we would still talk about his brother and our estrangement. I told him that in 27 years our relationship with him had never been 'tested'.

There had never been any significant disagreements, arguments or fall outs and it was as if, whatever it was that made him estrange us, when our relationship was first challenged we didn't have the knowledge and experience to put it right. We fell at the first hurdle.

MH problems may well be genetic Onward, alcoholism has been known to run in families and I sometimes wonder if the fear of having 'inherited' MH issues can in itself be damaging.

My mum had issues which my brother and I witnessed and lived with our entire lives. Several suicide attempts and being hospitalised for a complete nervous breakdown when we were still children. Episodes of agoraphobia which meant that she was 99% of the time unable to leave her home for the last 12 years of her life.

The agoraphobia worries me sometimes as I can go for days quite happily not leaving the house. I'm happiest here, and at our lodge where I feel safe. For the first 4 years of our estrangement, living so close to our ES, I never felt safe emotionally, as if I could fall apart at any time, much harder and further than my poor mum ever did.

So it does worry me sometimes and is something that Mr. S. thinks about too which is why we're both so pleased that I joined a choir just over a year ago, which I very nearly managed to talk myself out of.

Just seen your post Yogin. Get plenty of rest, keep warm and don't go out. I made that mistake too and regretted it. Hope you feel better soon. (((hugs))) and .

Yoginimeisje

Morning all

Rotten day, feeling rotten myself, really bad flu, must say those 'Lemsips extra strength seem to help a lot. Took my little dog out to the park yesterday and regretted it, so not going out today.

Whiff I watched that 'The boy the fox....' I thought it lovely, I've saved for my GC and would like to get them the book. I watched the 'Nutcracker' that someone mentioned, that was very good too.

Back later to read more posts..

Yog. Sorry to hear your not feeling too well, seems to be a lot of colds & flu going around lately . Just thought I’d pass on the information I’d had from our local chemist when I’d gone to buy Lemsips , she said to simmer on stove some sliced lemons in little water to get the juices mixed in , then strain into glass , add some honey , add a tot whisky if liked , then , taken with couple paracetamols , she said much better than packet Lemsip and much cheaper . I’d made up a pint and put it in a Tupperware mug and kept in fridge . Worked wonders .

Sounds good Dibby. Mr. S. was making me lovely hot lemon and honey drinks which with a couple of paracetamol helped me to sleep.

The only other person who made such lovely honey and lemon was my mum.

Should have said thank you all for your kind words re my flu.

I noticed that years back, how seemingly rotten, unloving parents had children who would do anything for them and then the good loving parents were the ones that got a hard time from their teenagers & AC. Is it because the C in the afore mentioned crave the love of their parents and the later have it, so feel they can throw it away and get it back at a later date[?].

Oh Smiles so sorry to read about your difficult childhood with your mother's MH .

Thanks for that Dibby I've taken so many lemsip that if I added whisky I may start singing from the rafters, thinking I'm in Smiles choir

Well done for joining a choir Smileless Glad you had your hair done too, it really gives a boost doesn't it.

Interestingly, the son who has estranged us is the son we made special allowances for due to trying to pick our battles wisely and realising he was emotionally young for his age. We got a diagnosis of learning problems, which I won't write about in case it's outing. He always challenged this and refused to work with the therapist because he "didn't have that problem". There wasn't much they could do for him with that attitude. Later on as an adolescent with MH problems, the same thing. No one could help him because he could not accept authority.
He made things harder for his siblings because they would sometimes get the blame for things he had done and he would be destructive to them. As an adult he got a diagnosis of ADHD, but even that doesnt explain how he was. I have always wondered if he had/has Oppositional Defiant Disorder because if you say something is black, he will say it's white and he will argue relentlessly to try and get his own way- then refuse to speak to you if you think your own thoughts. He's currently not spoken to me for 3 months but is posting photos online of all the drugs he is taking and I despair of him.

Still, another day and here we are. I'm thankful for my youngest every day, who ironically would not be here if my ex husband had had his way. I chose the baby over the man because he tried to make me get rid. It was an abusive relationship. He told everyone the baby was not his (it was) and I went through a really hard time on my own because I left him to try and bring up the kids right. He lied terribly about me, but I'm sure the truth will come out one day. If anyone is ever in this position, always choose the baby. Not the baby-man whose an abuser.

Sending honey and lemon virtually to all who need it and of course huge bunches of

You're more than welcome to join Yogin.

I've often thought that and will always believe that neither our ES or his wife thought things would go the way they did. Expected pleading and grovelling; total capitulation and us being prepared to be there when they wanted us to be, and thankful for 'the crumbs under the table' so to speak.

Would we have avoided estrangement? It's a possibility I suppose but we'll never know and anyway, I couldn't live like that and wouldn't want too.

To work and to be beneficial to all concerned, relationships need to be reciprocal and love and respect has to be shared equally.

I do think there's something in them taking advantage of the love they know we have for them Yogin, believing that that will transcend anything they say or do, not matter how cruel.

You've certainly had a tough time bringing up your son Onward, doing all that you could to help him yourself and getting the professional help he needed. I hope that you can find some comfort in the knowledge that you did everything any loving mother could possibly do.

Our ES has lied too, predominantly about me and like you I'm sure the truth will come out one day and I can only hope that I'm still around when it does.

I do hope you feel better soon Yogin.

Glad you're perking up Smiles.

I think you are all making a good point about taking the love for granted and tossing it away as opposed to fighting for it. People are complicated.

Thankyou Smileless I do believe my son was actually breadcrumbing me. You normally see this treatment in dating, but I realised he was treating me exactly that way. I fell for it for a while as it was done in such a gradual way that I didn't see it happening at first. It's very cruel head games that no body needs- it's not love.

Yes, people are complicated.

Crikey I have missed so much will have read this a page a time. Hope you had the best Christmas day you could whether alone or with a loved one.

Smiles I am sorry I never realised your estrangement started Christmas eve that is the height of cruelty.

10 years for you and Yogin and 8 for Pixie I know Allsorts it's been a long time for her as well.

It shows how much this thread is needed as new people find it . Estrangement has to long been a taboo subject. We are the victims of estrangement by our adult children and in some cases adult grandchildren. Our little ones have no choice.estrangement is forced on them .

Helping my friend has been harder than I thought. But I don't want her to make all the mistakes I did. Our circumstances are different so in a way she has the time and space to grieve probably. By helping her I realised I never had that . And realised how much I gave to others when I should have had the space to cope on my own. But times where different. She's 64 and her husband was 71 and they have no one dependant on them. I was 45 and my husband was 47 had both the children , my parents ,mother in law and my brother's grieve to cope with as well as my own. Because helping her been looking back a lot to that time. I know my loved ones didn't realise I needed the space because I never said leave alone. But as I have said before I have always put others first. But I can't and won't change who I am and would do exactly the same thing again . My loved ones needed me so I was there for them.

The tears and grieve I coped with helping them. But what hurt me and still does is the fact my mother in law denied she had a son or 2 grandchildren. People who knew her just played alone with her but not my family. She first did it a week after he died . She was getting her pension and my mom was in the queue 2 behind her . The post mistress said she was sorry to hear X had died and how was XX coping her reply oh her she's fine . How are the children? Her reply they don't have children. When it was my mom 's turn she was asked how I was mom said heartbroken . The PM said I thought they had children my mom said they do a wonderful daughter and son W is a nutcase and I don't know what her problem is.

My mom caught up with my mother in law and gave her a piece of mind . My mother in law said he shouldn't have married me as I was defective. How my mom didn't hit her I will never know.

I had forgotten this and helping my friend brought back things from that first year right back and it has been like it happening all over again. But at least this time I could cry,scream ,shout and hit a pillow to my hearts content. And saw my husband with that stupid grin on his face everytime.

My pain levels being worse than normal hasn't helped . But finally they are back to normal and being able to finally grieve I have turned a corner. Only took me nearly 19 years.

Normandygirl we need to cry when we need to if we don't we are only hurting ourselves. I doubt very much my son has shed a single tear over me. Tears are our way of coping with any situation sad,happy and funny . Our bodies are amazing and estrangement isn't just an emotional thing it can effect us physically as well especially if you have an illness which gets worse with stress. I am lucky my problems aren't effected by stress but know some here it can effect you physically and then you have the double whammy. Emotional and physical pain. All because our children decide one day we have severed our purpose and no longer needed.

Even when my mom's dementia turned her violent not once did I ever think I would be better off without her. Yes I hope every morning she had died in her sleep not because I didn't love her but because I did. And my mom would have hated what she became. I couldn't put my mom in a home as I loved her and knew I could look after her better than anyone else. When she died I am proud of the fact she hadn't got a sore on her body. Nurses where always surprised she had but I had heard enough horror stories about friends parents in homes with open sores that didn't heal. I made sure mom didn't get any.

I decided long ago before my son dumped me I would never let either of them look after me if I became unable to look after myself. Me putting them first as always.

But we all did that gave our children unconditional love and attention. And for a time they loved us back. I will never understand how a child that was brought up surrounded by love can switch that love off for their parents.

It was my son's 33rd birthday cards and presents and birth presents that he sent back all unopened with that letter. How come I had been his mom and grandmother to his children pre to that day and now I am not?

When did parents have an expiry date on them ?

Will post this and move to the next page.

Toetoe I felt angry when I read your daughter had verbally abused you . What gave her the right to hurt you like that. Why do some think their parents are there punching bags. I am glad you found the courage to post here you aren't alone . And getting help from a counsellor is helping you and that's a good thing. A good counsellor can help some people. Anti depressants are helping you which is a good thing. As your counsellor said your grandchildren are older and they know you love them. Has been said many times before estrangement is a living grief. You grieve for the child you had and that loving relationship. I will never understand how a child can stop loving their parents if they where brought up with unconditional love and attention. As your daughter was.

My husband wasn't brought up with that but he loved his parents but didn' t like them but he and me never gave up on them . I have only hated 2 people his parents but I couldn't turn my back on his mom after he died.

We live in a throw away society parents are becoming more throw away along with things.

Why would your daughter play at happy families only at Christmas but still treat you in such a horrible way. Christmas is one day out of a whole year .

You have done everything you can and it's cost you health wise. There comes a time when you have to say enough is enough and not take any more abuse from her. I hope you can some day.

I am lucky the only abuse I got from my son was via email and letter. My daughter in law vented her spleen about me on Reddit. But I can't and won't hate them had enough of that in my life via my in laws from 1975 until 2015.

Just keep posting Toetoe doesn't matter what you want to say. But talking to others who understand does make it easier to bear. You aren't alone.

Smiles hope you are back to full health and singing your heart out.
Right page 2 read. Will be back later need to get up and dressed.

Hi All, I know DSL has said she is leaving this thread as fully reconciled. However I remember her often talking about "the velvet rope" (I think that is what she called it) , by which she meant she kept a safe barrier around herself, whilst keeping the door open to move forward with her son/DIL if they were willing. I always saw that as a way of not allowing oneself to be hurt/battered by behaviours, not "jumping" when behaviours were intolerable, not pacifying or bending over backwards, and thus taking some control of the situation.

So why am I raising this now? Well the tactic seems to have worked for DSL and in my experience has potential for anyone who has some sort of contact , however difficult. It's not easy maintaining that velvet rope, maybe made easier by adopting a view that if one expects nothing then one isn't disappointed when one gets nothing, but it does provide a sense of some control over a difficult situation. Certainly a lack of reaction to behaviours can take the wind out of the sails of those who are used to/expect a reaction!

Glad that everyone has got through Christmas the best you can ...now into the New Year and hopefully a few nice things to do to get through the "January slump". I'm just looking through my diary and pondering on arranging a few meet ups with a few friends as a start plus I definitely need to do some sorting around the house, that will keep me busy!

Madgran you can only use the 'red velvet robe' if your AC&GC are in your life, aside from DSL, all on here are estranged, don't see anything of them, any of them, you can't use a red velvet robe on nothing.

Few weeks back I sat down for my lunch and their was a programme about Dot Cotton from Eastenders as she had just passed away. She was having a special dinner with her son at home, he then suddenly turned on her, really nasty and then said to her You'd do anything for me mum wouldn't you, no matter how bad I am to you! and she replied Yes, cos you're my son and I love you

Feeling a lot better today, just a painful back! Still got a hacking cough, but no sore throat. Have a few over tonight for NYE.
Hope you all enjoy your evening xx

Yoginimeisje

Madgran you can only use the 'red velvet robe' if your AC&GC are in your life, aside from DSL, all on here are estranged, don't see anything of them, any of them, you can't use a red velvet robe on nothing.

Yes I realise that Yogin re can only use if in some contact. Sometimes new people come on here who are in some contact, who are in that difficult and painful half way house and in those circumstances that rope seems useful. As I said in my comment above, in my experience

Glad that you are feeling better today. My knees are really painful today, not helped I suspect by the damp weather..ah well! 😏

Morning everyone. Managed a cough free night last night, first one for 2 weeks so am definitely getting over this awful bug.

I agree Madgran that there is the potential to avoid estrangement by applying the 'velvet rope' policy in some cases. Choosing how to respond, or not to respond at all to certain behaviour can as you say take the wind out of the sails of those who are used to/expect a reaction.

Not an easy thing to do, especially over a long period of time if there's no apparent positive change in the relationship and doing so impacts on your own well being, both physically and mentally.

Is it really possible though with your own child to expect nothing, especially when prior to the low contact/possible estrangement situation, you were so very close? That wouldn't have worked for me, not that we ever got the chance anyway.

As you and Yogin have pointed out, there does need to be some contact, and once estrangement happens all contact is lost.

For me, more important than the velvet rope to avoid estrangement, is love. Not just the love of the parent(s) for their AC, but the love the AC has for their parent(s) coupled with the overriding desire to have them in their lives, even if contact is limited.

Even if their husband/wife/partner doesn't want that contact, if they do, then it can and for some, does continue. 'Where there's a will, there's a way'; without that will, that desire and that love there is no way and that is when we become estranged.

Smileless I agree Madgran that there is the potential to avoid estrangement by applying the 'velvet rope' policy in some cases. Choosing how to respond, or not to respond at all to certain behaviour can as you say take the wind out of the sails of those who are used to/expect a reaction
For me, more important than the velvet rope to avoid estrangement, is love. Not just the love of the parent(s) for their AC, but the love the AC has for their parent(s) coupled with the overriding desire to have them in their lives, even if contact is limited. Even if their husband/wife/partner doesn't want that contact, if they do, then it can and for some, does continue

Hi Smileless glad you had a cough free night!

Yes I think in the circumstances you describe where a partner desires no contact or completely lacks interest, but an AC does,
then for some contact continues. The velvet rope can be a successful tactic which helps to stop an AC being "piggy in the middle" in some cases like this. As you say not easy to do but I do believe expecting nothing in these circumstances can help to make it a little easier for those trying to use "velvet rope" in their particular circumstances

Hello all. 💐

I haven't been on here, as Miss D has caused so much carnage, I decided to stay off of any social media/forum until I could get a grip of it.

I think I've blocked her well enough now - it's been quiet for a fortnight, and I haven't been impersonated anywhere.

I thought she was a bit damaged but got that wrong. She's a bona-fide nutcase. A regular bunny boiler...🙄

She's pretended to be members of the family, causing absolute chaos online, and made random police calls accusing us all of all sorts - it's been dreadful.

I sent her a letter from my solicitor telling her to stop with the slander etc.

She responded by sending me a "solicitors letter". It was so bizarre and illiterate, I knew it was fake, but I saw she had used a real solicitor for the letterhead, so I phoned them, pretending I thought it was from them, and asking them why they were sending me illiterate letters with nutty demands lol

They were not amused, to say the least.

That's only some of it.

My health has been affected by all this nonsense, and my DD is looking so unwell with the strain.

Meanwhile, DH's delightful family decided to completely ignore him over Xmas - no text, call, anything. So, I knew we were estranged from his youngest son, but think we are now from his eldest son as well.

Still, I am determined to start 2023 with determination, and build up the strength for March, when this child is due. It's not going to get easier. 🙁

So, Happy new year to all of you, whatever you are doing, and however you are spending it.👍

Sorry - in case you'd forgotten, Miss D is Miss Dysfunctionality, as I call her, my grandsons ex girlfriend, who is pregnant by him.

DiamondLily well remember your posts about Miss D. She has suppressed herself with her nutty behaviour. Glad you sent the solicitors letter as you have something on record incase her behaviour gets worse than sending that letter to you pretending it came from a solicitor. She had better be on her guard as you have contacted the solicitor who it was supposed to be from and they will take act if she sends you another one.

Sorry your health and that of your daughter's has suffered.

At least your husband knows where he stands with regards to his family.

DSL velvet rope worked for her I only hope things don't start up again with her daughter in law.

For me if my son ever got in touch I would talk to him if he wanted but any trust I had he has killed and I can never forgive the hurt he has caused me nor can I ever forgive my daughter in law. As I could never believe they won't do the same thing again.

My brother's second wife caused a rift between us because she lied. The worst of it was I had 3 witnesses to what I said my mom and aunt and uncle . Yet my brother believed his wife. He didn't speak or see us for 2 years this was over 30 years ago when my son was 18 months old. Because of how much he hurt my parents , husband and me I have never forgiven him as he knew I don't lie.

Thankfully he finally found the other half of him nearly 9 years ago . And I have never known him so happy and I love my sister in law very much .

If my husband had cheated on me I couldn't have forgiven him so why would I forgive my son and daughter in law for what they have done.

Wethered my grandson's will find me is up to them but they are only 6,4and 2 so have a long time to wait and see if they do.

My son naively thinks his email will disappear in 2025. It may do but I have a hard copy of it plus he's letter so if my grandson's find me before I die then I have proof of what he said . Time will tell.

So sorry that your Mother in Law was so cruel , Whiff. You have endured so much pain. Do you think there's any chance your Mother in Law could have had dementia to say such a strange thing? Thanks for sharing your story. You were a lovely daughter and a wonderful wife and Mum, no matter what anyone says. You did them all proud.

Could anyone explain what the Velvet Rope is, please? I may have missed that and it might be helpful.

I stopped replying to my son when he used one of my GC's birthday to send a barrage of hateful voice messages after banning me from seeing them, either in person or on the phone. By that time he had made visits shorter and shorter saying he was "busy". On that day he had arrived to pick up the birthday gifts as agreed (I'd hoped that GC might have come for a brief visit or that I'd be allowed to watch GC opening the gifts on video chat, but he refused and gave no good reason) I accepted it and as I know he's been difficult in the past, just tried to move on with my evening- but he started sending horrible messages to me and DH. At that point we decided to ignore the messages because otherwise it would have turned into an argument. If and when he had anything nice to say, we would respond to that. (He hasn't)

There doesn't seem to have been any good reason for cutting us off on GC's birthday, other than cruelty to us and to GC, pure selfishness and nastiness from ES. Part way through the abusive messages, I did tell him he is selfish to make his child's birthday all about him and encouraged him to go and spend time with his child on their birthday.

I asked him why he thought I would want to reply to abusive messages. His response was to keep on sending them, so mine was to do absolutely nothing. What would it have achieved to reply to such unreasonableness and cruelty? We decided not to give him "air time" and got on with our lives, aware of a new level of cruelty that we couldn't allow to keep happening to us.

Whiff , what is the email and why does your son think it will disappear in 2025? I am keeping records of all my son's abuse and its going to be in my will that everything is to be left to my GC and to my faithful and loving younger son.

Like many of you, I can't trust. Trust needs to be earned and built back up. Abuse has damaged the relationship and until he does something positive, there is nothing to build on. There may never be. True, time will tell all.

My last words to my son were "Well, you're going to have a lot more time to think about this than I do" Then I stopped speaking. He argued and I didn't answer. Of course he's got a lot more time to think because he's only in his 20's and I won't always be here. Also, his words will still be here when I'm not. Stupid boy.

Glad you're feeling better today Yogin, back ache is horrible so I hope that's improving.

Your poor knees Madgran, you'll have to try and rest your legs as much as you can.

Not sure what I'd do if our ES got in touch TBH Whiff. Like you, I know I could never trust him again and as I never want anything to do with her under any circumstances I don't see anything ever changing.

What do you mean about your son's email disappearing in 2025? Do they only 'exist' for a certain amount of time?

Good grief DL, she's even worse than we thought isn't she. No wonder her escapades are affecting your health and your D's. You couldn't make it up could you, and even if you did, who'd believe it!!!

Our local council has cancelled this evening's fire works display as we have an unexpected guest in one of the bays; a walrus. He's magnificent and has drawn quite a crowd which hasn't fazed him at all, so well done to our counsellors for putting his welfare first.

So no fireworks for us to watch from our roof terrace but we have meal booked for 8.00pm to look forward too. Thank goodness we are now well enough to be able to go.

So dear friends, a 'Happy New Year' to you all. Who knows what 2023 may have install for us all but whatever it brings we know that we'll all face it together xx