Interesting watch

DiamondLily
I feel for you and your husband enormously, but I wonder if people will be talking about me in this way one day, never again means never again, no last minute reconciliations, no going to her funeral (assuming I’ll outlive her, she’s going strong)
But when I see the heartbreak you and Smileless have gone through, I think I maybe deserve it.
It doesn’t change anything for me though.

Sara1954

DiamondLily
I feel for you and your husband enormously, but I wonder if people will be talking about me in this way one day, never again means never again, no last minute reconciliations, no going to her funeral (assuming I’ll outlive her, she’s going strong)
But when I see the heartbreak you and Smileless have gone through, I think I maybe deserve it.
It doesn’t change anything for me though.

No, I wouldn't bar them from the funeral. Funerals are about dignity, protocol and calm. If they wanted to reconcile, I wouldn't stand in their way.

But, I'm finished with them, when I no longer have to have them in my life. And, they will be left in no doubt as to why that is.

As I've said, every estrangement is different, and it depends on the background to it.😉

But if they wanted to attend the funeral, would you not feel that was the height of hypocrisy?

Sara1954

But if they wanted to attend the funeral, would you not feel that was the height of hypocrisy?

Probably, but they are still his sons, and funerals are very much about protocol.

And, when someone dies, people do often show hypocrisy.

I'm not sure what they would do - hopefully I won't find out anytime soon.🙂

What thoughts do people have on how to prevent estrangement or what barriers exist to reconsiliation?

Is this something everyone posting here has considered?

Many people come to these threads looking for advice when newly estranged or when the relationship with a family member is struggling. How can we help them?

DiamondLily
I admire your dignity, and how you have managed to rise above it.
Hope your husband has many more years with you.

Sometimes estrangements need to happen for the peoples' peace of mind.
I have had the unfortunate experience of estrangement for years which was resolved temporarily because I was undergoing treatment for cancer. But I always felt uncomfortable around the family concerned because of the previous issues. Now it has happened again and I'm probably more devastated this time because I was needled into making a reaction that for years I had kept under control because the person concerned is a past master at passive aggression and control. I took the bait like a fool because this person will not let things lie and was understandably upset when I said things they didn't like and 'were unaware of'
Life was much easier before and now I have to go through the whole bereavement, anger and sorrow again when I had dealt with it before and reached a point in my mind where I was finally okay with it all.
Estrangement is not a happy state of affairs for anyone but in these days when people keep banging on about MH - it maybe all that keeps some people sane.

Blood is not always thicker than water, we aren’t obliged to like our relatives.
I try and feel something for my mother, I try to drag up a bit of compassion, but there’s nothing there.

Maybe I have too much desire to "fix" things. I know that's a personality trait that kept me in that relationship for far too long

But my mother had an awful childhood she revisited on me. There must be ways to heal that or those of ustranged from abusive, neglectful, controlling or shut down and unloving mothers, would not have found our own better ways

Maybe as mentioned, societies focus on mental health, could prevent some future estrangements.

No you don't Sara. Everyone's situation and experiences are different. Your mum lost her relationship with you but you ensured that she didn't lose her GC too.

We only have two and because of our estrangement don't, and in all likelihood will never know them. We have an email from ES when he said they needed some space, assuring us that they'd never stop us from seeing our GC because they knew how much we loved him. A few months later we were totally cut off.

Funerals are a hard one. I don't want our ES at mine because yes, it would be hypocritical and I feel the same about his dad. I also think it would be very hard on which ever one of us is left behind.

We've been estranged 10 years already and as you've said DiamomdLily, hopefully neither of us will find out any time soon, but can you imagine at a time of grief, when you're at your most vulnerable, seeing the person who estranged you and hasn't been in your life for years?

I wouldn't want anyone to feel they'd need to tell him not to attend my funeral, and I wouldn't tell him I didn't want him at his dad's. I hope that if there's no compassion or understanding, common sense would prevail and he'd stay away.

now I have to go through the whole bereavement, anger and sorrow again that's awful swampy, especially as you'd finally moved on. I do know a couple of people who've reconciled, one after several years of estrangement and I admire their courage for doing so.

I'm pretty certain I wouldn't have the courage or the strength to live with the fear of it happening all over again.

Prevention can only happen if the estrangement hasn't taken place and barriers to reconciliation are many and varied, and very much dependant on individual circumstances.

The biggest barrier for me is fear and a close second is the destruction of trust and I have absolutely no idea how or if those could ever be overcome.

Not all parents who were abused, neglected, controlled and/or shut down revisit that on their children so I suppose a starting point would be to ask those that managed to break the cycle.

I don't have any problems with my children but I do not feel that gives me all the answers. The answers I do have are based on how people wish to be treated and spoken too and how some personalities are I suppose, too strong in whatever way that they are unwilling to change or admit any fault

While I have moved on from the possibility of a relationship with my mother and do not have hope, I don't feel its impossible for that situation to change.

For instance a circumstance where she is frail and alone, I doubt I would be able to turn my back on her. I would care for her the best I could. The distance and the healing I've achieved we be quite difficult to undo at this point. I'm a stranger to her now. But if she were changed I'm sure that closeness could be achieved again in some fashion.

I do believe that it is never too late to change and heal. I'm a different person than I was 6 months ago and will be different again in 6 months.

Some of that change is natural and some of that change is choice.

If my mother was alone for the first time, with no one to hide her misdeeds from, no one left to lie too, and no one left to impress or seek simpathy and attention from, maybe she could finally face the truth of herself

Well no, of course it doesn't give you all the answers VS. As I posted, a starting point would be to ask those who've broken the cycle of abuse, how the managed to revisit their own childhood's onto their children.

An EP would have to want their EAC in their life when frail and alone. I wouldn't want mine if we hadn't already reconciled.

That should have read 'how they managed not to revisit their own childhood's onto their children'.

I don't know that that is always possible Smileless, I don't know how it works. Would you have to somehow emancipate yourself from your living relatives? What happens if you are unable to make a decision for yourself?

I don't know how it all works. Personally myself I don't ever want my children to be in a position where they have to care for me but I don't know how in a position I will be to make those decisions

Of course it's always possible, unless as you say you're unable to make decisions for yourself but then there maybe other family members who would know that being cared for by someone who wanted nothing to do with you for years, would not be something you'd want.

I don't know of anyone who would ever want their children to have to care for them. I certainly wouldn't our DS to have too and there's no way I'd accept help from our ES.

I can't imagine anyone would want to have to rely on receiving care from the person who they no longer have a relationship with, because that person estranged them.

I know it's difficult to imagine but it has come up on this forum and previously estranged children have and still are caring for parents. I don't doubt it happens in reverse too.

So I don't think everyone feels that way

'We've been estranged 10 years already and as you've said DiamomdLily, hopefully neither of us will find out any time soon, but can you imagine at a time of grief, when you're at your most vulnerable, seeing the person who estranged you and hasn't been in your life for years?

I wouldn't want anyone to feel they'd need to tell him not to attend my funeral, and I wouldn't tell him I didn't want him at his dad's. I hope that if there's no compassion or understanding, common sense would prevail and he'd stay away"

Smileless - no, I wouldn't want them there, and they'd not be travelling with me, but I wouldn't feel I could try and bar them.

Hopefully, they wouldn't try to attend, but I don't know. I've known too many "estranged" ACs become the weeping, adoring children when the Will is due to be read....🙄

Guess who's in for a shock? 😉

I think it’s tricky, I won’t go to my mother’s funeral when the time comes, I couldn’t be that much of a hypocrite.
But my husband and children will go, and I have a feeling they might think I should.
My grandson came back from a visit, and said, all she wants to make her happy is for you to send her a Christmas card, he thought it was so simple.
I never say anything against her, I just say we don’t get on.
But she’s your mum, they innocently say, everyone loves their mum.

No, I didn't really love my mum. But, for the sake of my kids, I didn't estrange her, and when she needed care, I did my duty.

I didn't, and haven't, shed a tear about her death though.😗

I would not attend my mother's funeral but I think with some members of my family it would be seen as "wrong" whether I went or not. Its tricky

I've used age appropriate language with my 2 younger children because one is autistic and one was too young to have memories of their grandparents.

My older children, it was the reverse. They had picked up on times I was not treated well and times they were not treated well or treated differently. They were also able to compare their grandparents with the grandparents of their peers. Also, they were made uncomfortable by questioning that happened about me and my parenting that stood put to them because they were happy in their home life.

I think the fact that I had more children and children of different sexes made things stand out more to them as well. One was favouritsed, one was scapegoated, others ignored. If I had had less children perhaps it would have been less apparent to my children and things would have worked out differently for them and possibly for me too.

Most of what I have learned about why my mother is the way she is happened after estrangement.

These days the information I found or was given by professionals is far more readily available and known. On most social media I see articles go by about narcissism or gaslighting or mental health issued and theor causes.

It can feel like an epidemic because quite a large amount of people I know are estranged from a family member or keep contact with a family member to a minimum.

That's not what we want in a healthy society, broken families, too many people unable to access the love and support they need.

We all know violence perpetuates violence in any form and at some point I hope educating people on these matters will work as a preventative

I know what you mean VS. My husband and his sibling fight (it is one sided really - not him) and the person it hurts the most is their elderly parents. It just seems far too difficult for his sibling to be happy, they just wallow in misery and for no good reason we have an adult child witha severe disability and the stress that brings but we are happy and find joy in life. I really haven't got the time to be over complicating my adult relationships

Janejudge it's so important to grab all the joy in life you can, I so agree

I don't think my mother ever finds much joy in life exceot being angry, playing victimised or putting herself in the middle of a drama

Realistically my mother and I look extremely alike, photos of us both in our 20s, we could be twins! But I have a completely different set of wrinkles to her and my face is aging completely differently because I smile and laugh a lot and rarely frown

I've seen posters who have had low contact speak of caring for that particular relative usually mum, but have never come across the person whose estranged, going back to care for the one they estranged prior to some form of reconciliation.

I know where that's happened too DiamondLily to the distress and fury of other family members.

When the time comes Sara you must do what you're comfortable with, not what others think you should or expect you to do.

'But she's your mum'; 'but s/he's your daughter/son'; it's infuriating isn't it. Perhaps those who say these things would feel differently if it was their mum, son or daughter.

It's not simply a matter of just sending a card though is it. It's whether or not doing so opens a door you wish to remain closed and perhaps, inadvertently giving hope of reconciliation where there is none.

The education is there VS but there also needs to be the will to put it to use. As you say, we know violence can perpetuate violence and that abuse can perpetuate abuse.

The abusive parent who excuses their behaviour because they were abused. The sexual abuser of children who excuses their behaviour because they were sexually abused as a child. What should be used as prevention is used by some as an excuse, a defence.

It's good that there's so much information available on line but I think that can bring about its own problems. The need to use labels and psychologically based diagnosis and terminology with little or no understanding of what they actually mean. There's an abundance of the use of narcissism, gas lighting, DARVO, ghosting etc. which aren't always appropriately used.

It has been spoken of here Smileless and does happen

There are also estranged parents who never stop trying to have a relationship with their children or grandchildren

Everyone is different

I tend to try and validate anyone using those terms to figure out their situation, its an important part of the healing journey for many. It's just simpler at times to use those descriptive terms to describe the thousand papercuts that can end a relationship.

I know I myself have struggled to give examples that others can validate and empathise with. To explain that one inciden that hurt is just a small.piece in a larger puzzle.

There is a danger then of being told it is not enough it is not valid, it does not justify estrangement until you can get enough out enough reasons enough puzzle pieces.

Whereas if someone asks after my family now and it is a person who I am open to knowing this truth of estrangement because we are becoming friends, I can say that my mother was emotionally abusive, she spent a great deal of time gaslighting me, that she used DARVO against all my attempts to make things right. Then I can just explain the terms, I do not have to look for enough puzzle pieces and I do not have to hurt myself in the moment by revisiting specific examples

Smileless
Spot on, on every point.
No I won’t go to her funeral, I can take the criticism, if there is any, and of course it’s not just a card, as you say, it’s opening a door. But to a nine year old boy who thinks his mum is the centre of his world, it seems such a simple thing to do.