Gransnet forums

Estrangement

In danger of becoming estranged from adult children

(243 Posts)
ElaineMcG47 Sun 17-Mar-24 00:34:30

I have two children aged 20 (boy) and 22 (girl)who are university students in Ireland. The oldest finishes university at the end of April. In Ireland, unless you are very poor, parents have to pay for university. I moved to the UK 18 months ago to get a better job to be able to support my children through university.

The children live in a house that I own in Dublin - I bought it when I was 23. They pay no rent as they are students. I pay all the utility bills and maintain and insure the house. They have a very expensive lifestyle as students - lots of foreign holidays, designer clothes, out drinking several nights a week, eat only at the best restaurants and cafes, have Sushi delivered to the door when they feel like it, and take taxis whenever they wake up late and can't get to work and/or university on time. They work full-time and go to university to be able to pay for their expensive lifestyles. They still get good grades.

However, they treat the house with terrible disrespect and me to, a lot of the time - I am a single parents since they were aged 3 and 18 months. There has been an infestation of mice in the house on two occasions. The last time this happened, the pest control company said it was the worst mouse infestation they had seen in a private house - and the infestation led to the neighbours house being infested also. This happened because my children, particularly my daughter, left food lying around uncovered, and bits of old food in the sink. I was renting out a room in the house at the time to another student. She had left food rotting on the table and kitchen work surfaces for a week. My children never let me know this, or never asked her to clean up, or never cleaned up the rotting food themselves to prevent a mouse infestation. When my children discovered there was mice in, they never let me know for two months. The final bill to get rid of the mice was 560 euros for the pest control company, and 2163 euros to defumigate the house afterwards and get rid of all the mice droppings. The children, but more particularly my daughter, are still not cleaning up the house. My son will do it sometimes with a couple of reminders. I went over last week to the house, the day after a new heating system was put in which cost 7000 euros, the bin in the kitchen was overflowing, there were pizza boxes with half eaten pizzas on the table, and bits of food in the sink. The external bin had not been put out for collection for several weeks and was overflowing. The carboard rubbish that my son had gotten from his Ikea delivery was left in the front garden. When I asked my daughter to empty the kitchen bin and dispose of the pizza boxes and their contents, she went mad, saying she hadn't time, that it wasn't her job, saying she hadn't time as she was going to work - the external bin is in the front of the house, so on her way out to work. Later I discovered she had no work that day.

There is a Ukranian girl now sharing the house who is lovely and keeps the house clean, but who has to do more than her fair share, because my two children won't help, though she acknowledges that my son helps a lot more than my daughter. This Ukranian girl states my daughter refused to help with any of the cleaning, leaves clothes everyone in the kitchen and sitting room, leaves used sanitary towels sticking out of bins and leaves takeaway foods uncovered and rotting in the fridge until they smell. About three years ago, there were two German girls sharing the house with my children and they couldn't cope with my duaghter's mess, leaving clothes everywhere, not cleaning up, and letting her dog pee everywhere and refusing to clean it up afterwards.

There is a back story to this, and apologies if I am long-winded. My daughter has always been quite a difficult person from a young age. Terrible temper tantrums from aged 2. In teenage years, she would scream the house down if the clothes she wanted to wear for school were in the wash - no uniform for school. Boundaries never worked - her demands were never given in to, and she lost privileges such as pocket money for bad behaviour. She also bullied her brother a lot and would make him cry - when I saw it, I always intervened, though they are still very close and tell each other everything and will back each other up against me. Other people have also found my daughter very difficult including teachers, and the family she stayed with in France when she spent a year there during the fourth year of secondary schooling - she had wanted to this and it was very expensive to do - 15000 for the year. As a teenager she would often threaten to tell social work that I was beating them up, and threaten that she would get my son taken away from me. She used to tell my son that I beat her up, and he would take her side, but when I asked him had he ever seen me beat her up, he would say he never had. She would also tell neighbours that I had assaulted her. When she used to threaten social work, I used to give her the telephone number to ring - I worked in healthcare so had the relevant numbers.

However, there is more of a back story to this. My son is not blameless either. I was very close to my son until he was about 14. At this time, he started to mix in with a bad crowd, and nothing I said or did could dissuade him from this, and he resented how much I tried to keep tabs on him. My son eventually started stealing from me, discovered the pin numbers for my online bank account, sold items from the house - cameras etc. He would have friends in when I was not there and they would eat all the food in the house, so it would be all gone within a day or two - this was before they went to university. They both had parties in the house when I was on night duty - I had to work four nights per month, and once when I went away for a night with my best friend. They damaged the work surfaces in the kitchen by dancing on them, damaged sofas by them and their friends vomiting on them. I had a converted attic in the house which was used as a den, and they put cigarette burns in the furniture and threw burning shorts and jeans out of the attic windows.

Things came to a head in those years before university, when my son age 16 decided to hide drugs in the house for one of his undesirable friends in exchange for 50 euros - the house was subsequently raided on a tip off by our police, the Gardai.. My son subsequently had to go into hiding as there was a threat on his life from the loss of money because the drugs were seized. This meant he had to change school as the drug gang knew which school he attended. No state school would take him because of the risk, but I got him into a private school, which cost 8000 per year. I had to work 55 hours per week though to pay for this school for two years, and eventually suffered with burnout. My son and daughter also had to move out of what was our family home to where they live now, which was my first house, which I had bought at a very young age and managed to keep. The gang tried to intimidate me in my home, and I was living in fear of being petrol bombed for the drug debt. A member of the gang came to my house one night. I knew who was ringing at my door, and I rang the police and they were arrested.

These were not children who were neglected. They did lots of after school activities, which they wanted to do. My daughter's hobby was sailing, and I paid for all this, including her sailing exams. They both also loved music, and had piano, singing, drum and saxaphone lessons. We travelled each summer abroad. They had lots of support with school, and I paid for extra tuition as they needed it.

I guess here, I would just like some opinions. Because of all that has happened, I feel a lot of resentment towards my children, and don't feel any real connection to them anymore. My daughter in particular, has always treated me with some contempt. If I text her, she will not respond for days, or until she needs something from me. If I try and arrange to do something nice with her, she will fob me off constantly. If I talk about how their behaviour has upset me or how I find it disrespectful, they become angry and annoyed and just walk away. If I say that something they have done or said has hurt me, and I feel the need to talk about it, they again become angry and blaming and everything is my fault. It's a big effort for them to do anything for Mother's Day or my birthday - if I don't remind them beforehand they won't do anything, yet I always go out of my way to celebrate their birthdays and buy them something nice, and also to make Christmas special. They will meet up with me when I am home sometimes, but they seem only interested if I am taking them out to an expensive restaurant or with the promise of cocktails and a serious amount of alcohol, and so it's gets expensive for me to try and maintain a relationship with them. Tea/coffee and cake in the local cafe or breakfast/lunch in a local bar is not enticing for them.

I am no longer sure, I can maintain a relationship with both of them. I still feel so resentful and sad about all that has happened and the way they have treated me, and that's impacting on my life, friendships and my relationship with my partner. I am working full-time abroad in the UK, but feel no longer able to do this - just wrecked by everything, and want to work part-time, but I can't sell the house where they are living because they are still in university, but yet I cannot stand to go there, and all the pressure to maintain it when they treat it so badly. After the last night when my daughter refused to empty the overflowing bin, I said I didn't want a relationship with her anymore, that I was so tired of trying to support them when they treated me and the house so badly.

Apologies for such a long post, and thanks to whoever manages to read through it, I just need some direction and advice on all this.

ElaineMcG47 Sun 22-Sept-24 19:55:22

Yes, JaneJudge. You are correct. I inherited a small Irish cottage from my uncle about 130 miles from Dublin. It's inhabitable but needs doing up - only an old range for heating which stopped working recently -it needs plumbing, heating, new wiring and insulation. I was hoping to sell the house my son lives in and use about 70k of that for my uncles old house as well as buying a small two bed apartment just over into the next county which is cheaper and easily commutable by bus to Dublin. Semi-retirement means that I will need to work part-time until I retire and there are limited jobs where my uncles cottage is - though that's where I will live full-time when I get my State pension. I also wanted a two-bed so that my son could stay with me until the end of college but I don't think I will last another two years with this atmosphere.

Re being abusive - yes I know he is being abusive to me. When he got involved in drugs briefly 5 years ago, his drugs counsellor used to tell him not to be so arrogant and that his lack of empathy for me and what he had put me through with the drugs issue was abusive.

Outside of our relationship, he has done well. He worked full time to fund his social life but has gotten the top 20 of 130 classmates, and he has now secured an post-graduate position in an investment banking firm from his internship which will start in May 2025.

However, the ongoing contempt from both of them for me is impacting my mental health and actually my relationship with my partner. I just feel sad and down about it a lot of the time. If I say anything to him about how I feel, it's immediate anger and blaming and saying 'I'm a shxt mother,' I have a 'temper,' 'no one likes me - my daughter says this too when annoyed, or that he can't remember his childhood or anything good about it.

Allsorts Mon 23-Sept-24 06:23:49

The are both abusive to you. Your son has done well in as much as he's secured a good position when University finishes, after a very difficult time mid teens and has turned that round.. They have both developed this attitude that you're there to be shouted at whilst paying all the bills. Only you can decide if that's how you want your future to be. Any more shouting over the phone just say calmly you're ending the call as you won't be spoken to like that. Don't sort out their mistakes. As for the central heating I would get it sorted but one more slip, he gets cold let him manage without it. You do risk estrangement but you've no life as it is. Any more shouting and abuse from either of them tell them to go out and come back when they can speak to you properly. I would not put up with them trashing the house as you have, you must have the patuence of a saint.

Babs03 Mon 23-Sept-24 10:00:51

We took years of abuse, enabling our daughter by continuing to take it, is hard to understand why anyone puts up with it tie so long but the very nature of abuse is that it diminishes your self confidence so much that you can’t call it our effectively.
It broke us. Don’t let it go this to you. You are so much better than this. Call it out now and stop taking it, distance yourself from your children and let them get on with it.
Take care xx

Babs03 Mon 23-Sept-24 10:01:42

Sorry, typos there, but you get the drift.
Where is the edit button?

DiamondLily Mon 23-Sept-24 17:13:32

Babs03

Sorry, typos there, but you get the drift.
Where is the edit button?

There’s not an edit button. 🤷‍♀️

Trixie76 Mon 23-Sept-24 18:00:59

Son and his fiance evicted me. I moved to be closer to them. I am now very alone.

Trixie76 Mon 23-Sept-24 18:02:15

Have you had this terrible experience?

Babs03 Mon 23-Sept-24 18:11:54

Trixie76

Have you had this terrible experience?

No but it sounds terrible.
So sorry it has happened and hope you are safe and looking after your well-being.
X

Smileless2012 Mon 23-Sept-24 18:22:29

Trixie that's terrible and I wish I was surprised, but when I read of how some AC treat their parents very little surprises me now flowers.

Like Babs, I hope you're safe and taking care of you.

ElaineMcG47 Tue 24-Sept-24 07:18:53

Thanks Babs03 and Allsorts. I agree their behaviour us abusive. I know what you mean Babs03 about abuse so diminishing your confidence so that you can't call the abuse out. Unfortunately, I already feel like that. I feel like I must be such a bad person, evil even, for my children to treat me like they do. Some of what they say to me is lije what their dad would have said to me. We separated when they were only 3 and 18 months. And he chose not to be in their life from ages 10 and 12, but my daughter has some contact with him since she turned 18. I got some quite bad news re my health yesterday, do am going to be moving back to Ireland before Christmas now.

Trixie76. I sm so sorry to heat that you moved in with your daughter snd her fiance only then to be evicted. That's a terrible situation yo be in! I hope you have found somewhere stable to live and some supports and friendship in the local community.

Smileless2012 Tue 24-Sept-24 08:49:20

The hardest thing I think Elaine is realising that it's AC who are/is bad because no one wants to have to believe that their child can be.

I'm so sorry you've had bad news regarding your health which makes it even more imperative that you take care of you. Your AC are old enough to look after themselves flowers.

welbeck Tue 24-Sept-24 11:59:07

if your son is clever and resourceful enough to work full time and still excel at his studies, he can work to support himself at college.
rather than spending wasting it on his social life.
don't have him living with you to cause you endless angst.
sorry to hear of your health problems; now is really the time to put yourself first for once.
surely you don't really think you are evil, a bad mother.
some people are just utterly selfish, and will take what they can, whenever they can, while it's easy.
there is no honour in being a doormat.
shake the dust from your bristles !
your life matters.
you are at least as valuable a human as they are.
and don't expect any sympathy or consideration from them.
be your own best friend.
all the best.

Babs03 Tue 24-Sept-24 15:39:31

@Elaine sorry to hear about your health. This makes it even more imperative that you put your well being first, your life matters as much as your ACs. The abuse you have suffered shouldn’t define you, stop the cycle now and stay away from your children for now, give yourself time to breathe.
They will survive but you could struggle.
Wishing you all the very best xx

Caleo Tue 24-Sept-24 15:56:20

I agree with the others who say sell up and leave the young people to do what they have to learn to do: they certainly do need to learn social and life skills!

It may make you feel a little better if you send them £5 each at odd intervals.

Mumless Sat 30-Nov-24 23:29:11

I’m writing this response as an adult (M40) who has gone no contact with my mum.

There is a lot to take in regarding your situation including all the responses, I have only read your initial post and the first few responses from other members.

I also think it’s worth noting that there are always two sides to a story, members here can’t truely comprehend your situation unless your children are also part of the discussion, which I do understand is not possible. Even without their inclusion here I will give you my feedback purely based on what I have read here which is surface level stuff.

1 - you say you resent your children because of what they have done to you, however it seems your children have resented you for a very long time. You can’t seem to fathom or disclose anything negative about your parenting of them as children and teenagers. To you, or the image you impose is that you are the perfect mother. You sound like an educated and intelligent woman so unfortunately saying you don’t recall anything substantial is not going to cut it. That substantial issue may not have been one particular event it could be many events repeated over and over again seemingly being ignored by you or being wilfully ignorant. Unless both your children are phycotic / mentally unstable which they are not as you mentioned they both have full time jobs and pass their university exams fine, then the reason they behave this way towards you is simply a reflection of your own parenting / morals and values you instilled upon them growing up. The fact they behave like this at such an early adult age and from both of them means to me that yes they were a lot of substantial issues with your parenting skills whilst they were growing up.

2 - you own that property outright. You have and have had it seems plenty of students in their renting rooms and you take that rent as payment, you are profiting of those tenants which is great well done. I’m sure you are paying very low income tax with offsetting things due to that. Regarding your children not paying rent, again this is a one sided story, did you promise your kids this house for when they were in university? Did you want them to go to that university so you could be closer to them limiting their choice of university and their education desires? Hanging that carrot over them for years but now possibly taking it away from them will not work for you. I suggest thinking is it worth it as you are clearly still making money from other tenants who I’m sure off set the cost of having your kids there.

3 - cleanliness, again we are not told how this was treated when they were growing up. Children don’t just walk out of the family home and become full functioning adults they need direction even something as small as why you need to put the bins out and what goes in what bin. Students and even adults are messy, this is just how some ppl are there is a difference between being messy and unclean/ unhygienic.
As you stated your kids seem to have a very busy social life, this is fantastic and they can afford to do the things they want to do like go on overseas holidays and go out for dinner and drinks, the way you worded your post initially makes it sound like you pay for all of this but then it’s mentioned that no in fact they pay for their lifestyle not you. You own the house and they don’t pay rent but you don’t pay their rent. You mentioned you pay the electricity, I’m sure other tenants pay their share of electricity though and as being an intelligent woman I imagine you have it worked out where your kids electricity is absorbed into the other tenants costs. So in actual fact - you pay nothing towards them now they are adults.
Don’t include social outings as an allowance or something, your kids like a boozy lunch so what? If you don’t want to pay the don’t pay but also don’t expect your kids to go to tea and cake cafes they have made it clear that’s not what they want so if you can’t fathom that then stop. On that note boozy lunches, apple doesn’t fall far from the tree - nothing mentions this and I understand why no one wants to talk about alcohol consumption as it’s probably deemed a private issue - however it is an issue especially if it’s a daily occurrence and occurred during their childhood. No mention of ex husband / father? When did you get divorced/why?

4 - the Ukrainian roommate. I find this relationship you have with her extremely disturbing. Seems you also had a relationship with the two Germans as well. Pretending to be a responsible landlord but actually just spying on your children and gossiping on baseless allegations is wrong on so many levels. The fact you are quite happy to disclose this and not realise how crap this behaviour is starts to paint a much better picture for me about your parenting skills.

5 - not validating your emotions. On surface level it seems to me you didn’t validate their emotional experiences growing up so now they are old enough to understand this they are simply doing what you did to them. The trust in your relationship with your kids seems to have been burnt a long time ago. I don’t know if it can be fixed as I don’t know the entire story and the fact that you end your post with that you resent them and possibly want to cut them off rather then “I love my kids, I really want to work at this and figure something out” then unfortunately I don’t think you want to save it. Your post is for validation of being a victim not one for constructive feedback on your parenting skills and help fixing your relationship with your adult kids.

5 - your workload. Again being smart and intelligent (just like your kids seem to be) means higher up corporate roles. Being a single mother is difficult in itself, being a single mum working corporate in foreign countries and I imagine being away from your young children as they grow would/ should be difficult. You need to think about this for a while, did you find that difficult? Or did you just do what had to be done but more in a way because it supported the lifestyle you had been accustomed to and now that your children had been accustomed to that you instilled onto them?

I could put many more points but I am in Australia and it’s rather late. I do want you to know that I have gone no contact with my own mum, completely different from your own issues but things still tend to overlap. Again this is surface level feedback and I only know so much.

You can be a lovely person but unless you’re capable of being truely honest and transparent with your adult children, being able to take on constructive criticism and acknowledge that maybe you were an absent parent for a large part of their lives then you will need to accept that your relationship with your children has ended.

NoMoreThanks Sun 01-Dec-24 06:18:59

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Smileless2012 Sun 01-Dec-24 11:49:10

I feel that having estranged your own mother mumless has coloured your response to Elaine. EAC blaming the parents they've estranged for what's wrong in their lives is I'm afraid all too familiar.

Your post came on at 23.29 UK time yet you say you're in Australia and it's rather late. A strange thing to say as Australian time is between 7 and 9 hours ahead of us here, depending on where in Aus. you live, so the time of your post would have been between 6.30 am and 8.30 am; early in the morning, not late at night.

DiamondLily Sun 01-Dec-24 12:24:34

mumless. every estrangement is different, as I’m sure you know.

You, obviously, had your own reasons for estranging your mother, and whatever the two sides to your story, you feel you did the right thing, so all good.

But, you should be careful not to project your experience onto estranged parents dealing with different situations.

On any forum, posters give opinions on what is asked. If the OP gives a situation, then different opinions may result from that.

As a Mum and Nan, I would say, though, that it’s perfectly feasible that ACs can have problems/issues that have absolutely nothing to do with suggested “poor parenting” - it happens.🤷‍♀️

Mental health issues, addictions, partner coercion etc etc. are fairly common themes.

Not everything is about upbringing. The escalation (in the UK) of mental health issues, in very young children, is the highest ever. I honestly don't think that means that so many young parents are poor parents. 🤔. There are many reasons.

As adults, we all make choices on how we wish to live our lives. We should take responsibility for ourselves.

Blaming our parents for everything doesn’t lead to a happy life.

Smileless2012 Sun 01-Dec-24 12:42:13

That's an interesting point DL, the escalation (in the UK) of mental health issues, in very young children, is the highest ever. I wonder how many of our AC's generation who blame 'bad parenting' for all that's wrong with them and their lives, will accept full responsibility if their children blame them, when they grow up.

DiamondLily Sun 01-Dec-24 12:58:47

It’ll be interesting to see in a couple of decades.

I can’t where else they, when older, could put the “blame” but on themselves if they have problems with their ACs 🤔

We can but hope everyone is truly happy and healed by then…
🙏 🤲

Allsorts Sun 01-Dec-24 13:19:31

Mumless
The poster has no doubt sorted things after all this time, but, you cannot judge what you don't know.
Why is it always parents fault, can adult children just be a nightmare too. Ive never knows so much mental illness, seems everyone is having some sort of label or condition making them as they are.

Delila Sun 01-Dec-24 13:40:46

I think, Mumless, you credit yourself with more ability to read between the lines than you actually possess. Your entire post consists almost entirely of assumptions, possibly based on your own experiences/prejudices, and I think you’re being unfair to the OP.

I think we should listen/read carefully what people have to say, and comment or advise accordingly, but not invent scenarios for which there is little evidence.

Crossstitchfan Sun 01-Dec-24 13:41:58

I can’t understand why the poster can’t sort her children out. She indulges them, pays for everything and lets them treat her like shit. Unbelievable that the poster is so gullible.
I’m not even absolutely sure that this post is real. If it is, then the poster has herself to blame. She should pull back from her children and let them get on with things without any help from her. Withdraw every bit of help, money or houses. It can’t make things any worse.
Why she even wants to get close to these two nasty pieces of work amazes and frustrates me!

Smileless2012 Sun 01-Dec-24 13:43:41

Totally agree Delila, there's too much inventing of scenarios for which there is little evidence on the estrangement forum in particular.

Babs03 Sun 01-Dec-24 14:42:46

@mumless,
Your whole post could be a case history in projection.
I think is important to take in differing situations and circumstances, the nuances that result in a whole lot of grey areas between the black and the white.