Support and friendship for those whose lives have been affected by estrangement.

No, that doesn't sound harsh Babs. You're probably right that your DH would have become estranged from both parents had his father not died when young.

Maybe she did see your children as a second chance. Of course as parents ourselves, we cannot begin to imagine not doing whatever it would take to protect our children from an abusive parent. Something that must have been even more poignant for your DH when your children were born.

Your husband's childhood and his and your ability to be there for his mum and allow her to be a GM to your children has really moved me. for you both x

Love your flowers sparkly A student bought me a Christmas Cactus last year and it's now flowering beautifully, I must take a pic to show her.

Strange you should say that Babs as he does look similar!

I'm listening to Tubular Bells; fantastic!

My son went to work on his motorbike this morning as he has an important course to do for his new job and couldn't risk being late; he got there in 1hr 5mins! remembering that a few days ago it took him 4hr 30mins to get home! His tutor was late, so he had waited an hour, but better earlier than late.

Can't do anything to his vehicles Smiles he'd know it was me and do the same back. I would really love to park on his empty driveway as I know it's not illegal to do, but of course he would block me in. How are your little doggies with the fireworks? I thought Joey was OK as he didn't bark, but put my arm round him when a lot were firing off for ages and he was shacking inside

Babs well done to your DH for being kind to his mum.

Thanks for the flowers Smiles, not many know my DHs history, our daughters were never told because it could colour their opinion of their gran. Is good to be able to talk about this.
Thanks also Yogi, poor Joey, thank goodness he had you there to hug him, some don’t bark but are still upset. I felt awful about dogs near us we could hear barking in an ever more shrill manner, obvs alone in the house whilst the fireworks were going off.
Just wanted to hug them all. 🥹

Babs, when I read what you said about your husbands childhood, my first reaction was he would have to kill me first before he hit my child. I am talking from my childhood perspective, where we were treated properly by loving parent. I then married and we were equal, so no problem, so was my second husband. But if your ml came from an abusive childhood into an abusive marriage, her self esteem would have been zero and was what she thought the norm. I am reading a book where wife beating and childhood abuse was everyday living for certain sectors of the population, in some cases causing life damaging injuries which never got reported. They lived in constant fear that one day their bully of a father could easily kill them. Its an unimagined thing to most of us thank goodness. Im glad you let her have that relationship with your children, there was love inside her all the time.
Yoga, the injustice of H M would cause a Saint to swear and I hope one day he meets head on with as big a bully as he is.😡

@allsorts, yes is alien to all of us how a mother could allow her husband to physically abuse their child, I wonder if he abused her as well, my DH doesn’t know but it seems likely, some men can control their partners/wives with fear. I suppose we will never know because she is also dead now and she never spoke about what happened.
My DH went to great lengths to neither be like his mother or father, he feared that it could be genetic, and when our eldest daughter became abusive towards us he feared this was the reason. I very much doubt it, I think we should all take ownership of our behaviour and I don’t think for a minute there can be any excuses for abuse.

Babs reading about your husband it was like my dad. His mom died when he was 3 and his brother 18 months. There father moved from one of the channel islands to where there mom came from so her sisters to help look after them while he worked. Within 6 months he remarried. Both his dad and Stepmom beat my dad . He never called it abuse or they beat him he said they didn't spare the rod . He never saw himself as a victim. As his brother got older her was beaten as well. Dad had 5 half siblings but they where just his brother's and sisters as dad was the oldest he took beatings in place of the younger ones . They where also malnutritish except his youngest brother who was born with Downs in 1950 it wasn't called that . That was the year mom and dad married . The only good thing about his dad and stepmom was he was never put into a home and was loved and had all the proper food. While the rest of the kids lived on bread and dripping or jam sandwiches. Dad's father beat him so badly round the head dad had a hole behind his right ear and went deaf in that ear. But dad never once said he didn't love his father . In fact my dad thought this way how all parents where . They had newspapers as a table cloth and his dad had a switch by his side and any one caught reading the paper got hit . Dad loved his brother and sisters very much and protected them . His youngest brother idolised my dad.

When dad was 17 he joined the army with the encouragement of his brother and sisters as they where frightened their parents would kill him as the beatings got worse.

Dad's escaped was to go too war. He fought in Burma,Indian and Egypt and was parachuted into Naples during the plague to spray the people with a powder . Dad hated people who revelled in their war stories of the things they did to the enemy. Dad said they did what they where ordered to for freedom and protect people who couldn't protect themselves. He wouldn't even apply for his campaign medals as to him medals where for bravery and courage not for doing their job. He told us funny stories of what happened and a couple of horror ones but nothing to do about fighting or what he had to do. I was married and had our daughter before dad said he got wounded he was stabbed in the shoulder in Egypt he had never even told mom . Mom never noticed the scar because of the beatings he took she just didn't notice. Which my husband took the Micky out of her saying she was only interested in his equipment.

Dad made a best friend in the army as D was a very quiet man and got bullied so dad protected him . When he came out the army his dad and stepmom said he could come home provided he gave them his wages every week but dad said no. D was an only child and his parents took dad in as he had protected D in the army. Dad's first glimpse of what a family was he . Every week he visited his brother's and sisters and took them out his youngest brother wasn't born then . And feed them .

He met mom in 1948 and saw what a real family was as mom was the oldest of 5. They married in 1950 . Because of mom his brother's and sisters had birthday and Christmas presents for the first time . They lived with nan and grandad until mom miscarried after 3 years of trying to get pregnant. Because they knew they wouldn't get a council house . Mom had saved money since she was 14 which meant they could buy their first house. Grandad and nan where so proud as no one had ever owned their own home . They had still seen his brother's and sisters every week . Once they had their house they had them to Sunday tea every week . All 5 of them as by then his youngest brother was 3 . They sent them home with lots of food. What they never found out until his step moms funeral the kids eat all the food on the way home as they knew their mom would take it off them and only her and P would have any.

My dads dad died few months after I was born . I never called dad's stepmother nan because I knew what she had done . My nan was mom's mom and had my granddad.

Sadly grandad died when I was about 9 but nan lived until she was 89 and I started to look after her when I was 11 of a weekend when she was ill. My 2 aunts who didn't work looked after her in the week. By today's standards they may seem odd but it's what we did.

But there are still thousands of child carers who look after their parents and siblings before going to school. And have no support. Wanted get on my soap box about my rant about that.

My husband was never beaten but he wasn't loved or given the attention he wanted and needed his escape was to join the scouts . When I went out with him he finally had the family he always wanted and needed. As I have said before I was brought up knowing my great aunties and uncles 2nd and 3rd cousins. They became his family . He's parents where vile and treated me and my family the same as my husband. I don't think they thought we would get married my father in law told me to my face I was defective. When his parents kicked off we walked out but where back every Sunday . We had over first house in 1980 and lived there with my husband to be during the week doing up the house and stayed at my parents of a Saturday night. He's parents behaviour got worse but we never gave up on them as my husband didn't like them but loved them . I hated the pair of them .

Only thing we did right in my father in laws eyes was having the children he adored our daughter but my mother in law took against her from when she was a baby . My father in law died in 1988 aged 70 funny enough a few months after I came out of hospital. When I told our daughter her grandad was dead she said he told me off picking up my brother. Our son was about 10 months old. My mother in law was all our son until he got his own personality. To both the children nan and grandad was my parents but we always let our children have contact with my in laws . My children knew there great nan and spent time with her plus they knew their great aunts and uncles and 2nd cousin same as my brother's oldest 2 children as there is a 14 year age gap between his son and youngest daughter.

For all I hated my mother in law I couldn't abandon her after my husband died she outlived him by 11 years dieing aged 91. But when my husband died she denied she ever had a son or had 2 grandchildren. But the kids always kept in touch with her and made sure she always had a mother's day card from them sounds strange to write grandmother's day card. Her brother turned up after she died in hospital after I had sat with her for 2 days 15 hours a day. The nurses said you must love her but told them I hated her they asked why I stayed with her told them because I could just leave her she was my husband's mom,our children's nan and still my mother I law.

I wasn't brought up to abandoned people . Funny how both me and mom loved men who had rotten childhoods and through us had the family and love they never had before.

That's some heartbreaking story Whiff, however luckily you and your mum , two strong ladies were there were they were needed most, to care and love .it was obviously your path.

Excuse any typos as I didn't want to lose it.

My son and daughter in law knows about my dad and they saw first hand what my mother in law was like towards us. My son grew up with her behaviour and yet they have treated me worse than she did. Funny enough her mother lives with them this is the 9th year. Her parents went back to where she was born when she was 18 but she had been in this country since she was 2 and didn't want to go any moved to live close to my son at uni. They took her brother and sister with them as they where young and had no choice. Lost count of the times she cried in my arms because she missed her mom and siblings . Never said much about her dad but my son was frightened of him. When her parents divorced her mom came back and I was told only living them temporarily. As she had half the house in the divorce and other money . Here brother and sister still live abroad . She estranged her dad over his having affairs . Funny enough I got on well with her mom . What really pisses me off they live in a 3 doubled bedroomed house it's not big enough for 3 adults,3 children and 3 dogs. My 3 grandson's are having to share a room which to me is so wrong . They are 8,6&4. Her mom is only a year older than me . And in better health than me. She must have no pride if she is happy to live there forcing her grandsons to share a room .

Anyone better change the subject . Sorry about all the animals suffering because of the fireworks. Buts it just not animals which suffer because of them . Unfortunately they set of my HPX and all my group . Plus I have friends with autistic children of all ages who get very frightened during the fireworks . It must be hell for blind people as well and people with other conditions especially neurological. They seem extra loud this year a very wizzy plus some sound like heavy rain on windows . As soon as it gets dull I shut my curtains as I can't stand the flashes ..They started here beginning of September and will continue until new year . Plus during the half term there are a number of private schools with army cadets which do shooting practice as it's quiet here sound travels and have constant bangs for a hour at a time . I timed them .

Babs your husband was like my dad and husband they rouse about there childhood's and never treated their own children like they where . But also never denied grandparents seeing your children. It proves your childhood doesn't have to make you be bad parents.

Our children decided we are surplus to requirement their choice it was nothing we did or didn't do . My son and daughter in law have treated me worse than my in laws and that's saying a lot . I gave up hope of ever seeing him or my grandsons again last year and have been happier making that decision. I can't live with what ifs or if onlies . There was nothing I could do as I never saw what my son did coming I haven't failed as a mom but he has failed as a son . Thankfully I know my grandsons are their world so have no fears that they aren't loved and cherished and brought up as kind loving boys .

I am lucky I have my daughter and family. I am very independent and hate to ask my daughter to do anything. But she's been having to changed my bed the last 2 years as I can't lift my mattress . And I am included in outings .And she took me for my bone scan last week. Saw them Monday after school she changed my bed and told her all about what my neurological appointment. My youngest grandson was happy to play with the playdoh while I played Pokémon cards game had got a clue what I was doing . When mine where young there where only a few Pokémon characters now there are so many.

Well better stir my stumps and get on with the day. Sainsbury's delivery,stew to make and presents to wrap. Eye test tomorrow booked it yesterday when in the village it's called a village but more like small town . Not due for test until June but know my readers need stronger lens have to see about my distance ones .

😊🤗

That is such a remarkable story about your dad and his siblings Whiff. He was obviously a very strong and generous/kind person despite such a terrible childhood.
Is good remember men like him, and am glad you did just that, his life deserves a hearing. 👍
As you quite rightly say ‘we’ never even contemplated abandoning those who had done us or our DHs wrong, it simply wasn’t an option. So is ironic how our ACs whom we brought up so differently with all the love and support they could possibly need decided to kick us to the curb!!
In any case have stopped trying to unravel this conundrum, and am sure you like others on here have done the same.
What I can’t change I will live with and get on with my life.
Off to afternoon tea this afternoon in a nice hotel in town, one of our daughters got us a voucher last Xmas.
Keep on keeping on estrangees 🌹❤️❤️

My dad's story was similar Whiff He was in Africa at age 17yrs and protected a Germany soldier they had captured from the rest of the men, saying he's just a young lad like us. My dad was hit by a morta bomb and invalided out of the war.

Good men who deserve to be remembered by everyone on Armistice.

In 'those times' way back, a lot of children & wives were beat, it wasn't unusual then and wasn't reported or even acknowledged as an unacceptable thing to do.

I signed a petition regarding stopping the fireworks being legal 356 days of the year, to be restricted to the main days and within 7pm - 11pm. I've read animals and birds have died through the fireworks, even a local woman to me. Some yobs, after firing fireworks at passing people & cars, put a firework into her letterbox and she died of smoke inhalation!

I would sign a petition if anyone could send a link, I feel very strongly about this. And that is horrible to hear Yogi of the poor woman who died as a result of yobs putting fireworks through her letterbox. Her loved ones must horrified and incandescent with anger.
As you know we have always had dogs and cats until recently and they all suffered when the fireworks went off, Petra our beautiful Siamese I sent a pic of needed a sedative from the vet, as you know Siamese cats can be highly strung and she was certainly that, so the poor sweetie would be totally wrung out if I didn’t sedate her.
What makes us so arrogant that we think we can treat animals a we wish?
😡

Yogi thank you for liking my flowers. Your petition is great
In some countries, silent fireworks are only allowed.
The volume around here at the weekend were BP raising. From inside too!
People with pets are affected too. On the 4 nights we’ve had fireworks here this week, my two cats were wide eyed, looking to me for an explanation which I couldn’t give. I kept them in each evening from about 3pm.

Has any one come across this book -

No Sparkly Grandma but it sounds good, are you reading it?
🤔

Morning everyone ☕️

Babs03 not yet. Abanded is delivered today.

Still haven’t got that book, note to self to do this, hope you are still enjoying your milky coffee with your adorable cats SparklyGran.
Had a lovely afternoon tea yesterday, got a voucher off the daughters, ate way too much so couldn’t face any dinner, trouble is I was up half the night with reflux, take meds for it but had a flare up. Better today but just a bit of scrambled egg for lunch, my old mum used to say ‘your eyes are bigger than your stomach’ and bless her she was right.
Take care 🌹❤️

My mum used to say that too Babs03 only a coarser version;

‘Your eyes are bigger than your belly’.

Milky coffee in the morning!

Abandoned arrived today..

Morning everyone.

What a fabulous family history Whiff and Yogin. Our EGC miss out on more than having a relationship with their GP's, they probably also miss out on one side of their family's history too .

Not read that one Sparkly but have read all 3 of
Sharon Ann Wildey's and all 3 are excellent.

My gran used to say 'eyes bigger than your belly' Babs; not much chance of that being the case these days .

Busy day yesterday, shopping and baking in the afternoon as my dearest friend from Portsmouth is arriving tomorrow for a few days.

Dental appointment this afternoon and then going to collect my new car!!! I'm excited and nervous in equal measure as it takes me a while to get used to a new car, so it's good that Mr. S. will be with me.

Not driven an automatic for years so rather looking forward to it. The last one was a Mercedes Sports, now that was fun to drive .

Good luck with your dental appointment Smiles and enjoy picking up your new car and taking it for a spin!
Enjoy 😊

I love automatics Smileless. Would never go back to manual now

Smileless thank you for saying they are good books as you have read them- Sheri McGregor MA’s.

Have some nice self care things this weekend, fellow estrangees ☕️.

SparklyGrandma haven't read that one but read The Devils dilemma one. But she's a good writer no waffle.

New car sounds exciting Smiles have fun driving it. Went to have my eyes tested on Thursday and on my records it said I drove told them never have . I did learn to drive but on my test got the pedals confused and nearly went into a brick wall. Luckily in the driving school car and the tester stopped the car. Then he drove back.

Have a lovely time with your friend lots to catch up with. They will love your new home .

As I suspected needed new readers and distance glasses . Also have the extra test. Optician said I have the early stages of cataracts but long way to go before I will need them doing . Glad I have pension credit as it knocked 2 thirds off the cost of having them . Asked to be put on yearly recall for eye testing as it had only been 18 months since I last had them changed.

Must admit I don't go to the dentist unless I have a problem. Last time I went was 9 years ago . I don't mind what I spend on my eyes but the prices dentists charge to me is a waste of money . My brother has always gone every 6 months and just had to have 4 front teeth out and has a denture. Cost £1,900. No NHS dentists where he lives.

Yogin think our dad's where made of the same stuff. Sorry your horrible neighbour has started his antics again . Since my move here my whole life has been better. Even the estrangement with my son hasn't marred how much my life has changed and how happy I am . Until I moved hardly slept but sleep all night apart from visits to the loo but straight back to sleep. Finally had my last 6 plants delivered and planted them out . Garden all ready for the winter. Still have some flowers open and my dogwood has turned red . Bitter cold here this morning so put the heating on at 5 when I wake . This year I don't have to worry about having my heating on as much as I need it . But then again living in a bungalow it's stays lovely and warm .

Babs glad you had a lovely afternoon tea . It's a lovely treat . It's not just the food I like but the ritual of it harks back to a bygone age . At least we don't have to wear corsets .

Yesterday finally finished wrapping all my Christmas presents. Love choosing them but wrapping I am useless at. My daughter says you don't need labels as everyone knows which is off you. Cheeky but true.

Brought a cheap apron of eBay ready for my craft group to start next month after the roof repairs as we will be using glitter a pet hate of mine. But don't think glitter is the same as when my children where young . I was forever getting it jammed under my finger nails . This year I can go to the Brain Charity cheese ,nibbles and wine get together . It's always on a Thursday and my old craft group was Thursday so couldn't go. It's 4-7 so will have a taxi home . One thing about going to the Brain Charity I don't have to mask how I really am . As I know I do it especially in front of my daughter she knows I am getting worse but she lets me be who I want to be . If there is anything seriously wrong I tell her . And my grandsons automatically know if I am not so agile and they change what we do.

Got the youngest this afternoon and he will be having dinner with me so it will be Quorn sausages,baked beans and toast. We will make some biscuits and got icing in tubes for him to decorate them . He can roll out so sorted out all my vehicles cutters as he will like them. Sorted out the toy boxes and put the toys that they no longer play with to give my daughter she gives things to a charity for people having babies and children under 2 .

Hopefully finish writing my Christmas cards tomorrow. Then I am done for Christmas this year. Just the tree and outside lights to do in December..

Have a good day everyone.

You are amazingly organised Whiff 🎅🤶

@whiff I wish I was as organised as you, am a bit of an eleventh hour kind of person at Xmas, always meaning to start earlier but never actually doing it. Mind you every single member of the family seems to have birthdays in Nov/Dec/Jan. is so inconvenient 😂
Have a great day with your grandson, he will be thrilled with the biscuit making.
@Smiles have fun with your friend from Portsmouth. As you know I lost a very dear friend recently, cherish the times you have together. 🙏🏾❤️