Estrangement isn't only non contact. It's lack of empathy and love. It's selfishness.

Look at Dr Joshua Coleman on YouTube as quoted above.
Really good.
But you have to be open minded and really take on board what he's saying to get any benefit.

Well oh my, I didn't get to read all the deleted posts....must have been doozies, eh? No matter. I don't need people projecting their own situations onto me; and my original post was really more of a statement of how estrangement isn't always a physical estrangement and what I have observed watching someone who was raised to love family evolve into a very self centered, unloving person. I assure you, the woman who is my daughter now is not the daughter I raised or remember. That one was a treasure and I really miss her. Remember, the original post wasn't all about me....yes, I and you all too can make things about ourselves, that is human nature. So it was in part about me, as the issue is ongoing for me, but, my main upset was how she is treating the rest of the family. A very nice Uncle, my brother in law, who had prepared a wonderful dinner, presents and had been looking forward to seeing the kids since last year he had to work on Christmas Eve. At that moment I felt so awful for him and it was this beautiful grandson of mine who saved the day. Both my grands are extremely family oriented, they love all their family.

ShropshireGal87

OP, you seem to be feeling defensive right now, as any of us would after getting so many comments disagreeing with us. It's very difficult to get negative feedback. But I hope you will read through some of the constructive advice.
It seems to me that you took your daughter's heartbreak to heart, as a parent would, but that you felt it so strongly that you unfortunately made the situation about yourself. You went to her crying, and she may have felt you were not being supportive, as you imagined, but instead expecting her to support you. You have talked a lot about how hard it was for you, how friends said you were lucky your children cared for you so much, the way you have needed your grandson's affection. It all seems a little bit back to front.
I know so little about your situation of course, but you mention an unhappy marriage and perhaps you have relied upon your children putting you first where your partner should have been in that role.
Good luck OP.
There's currently a useful thread on reconciliation and reflecting on your own part in that which you may find helpful.

I appreciate your message, but really, I tried very hard not to make it about myself. I never even let my daughter know I cried every night for 2 years until one day she mentioned her pain, as though I hadn't a clue about it and didn't care. Which was so ironic. Her pain....some days I actually felt it, in a very physical way too, it was very strange to me. So one day, I actually looked up how I was feeling and found something called Hyper-Empathy Syndrome. I had no idea, so finding out helped me a bit. But yeah, I never went crying to her. The only time I ever cried in front of her was when she harshly rejected my offers to be there if she needed to talk. She thought I wasn't worthy of that because I married a controlling man(her dad). In fact, when she married hers, she used to brag how much better a choice she made than me....oooh more irony there, for sure. I mean, hers just up and left, didn't even consider the marriage counseling she wanted to do to save the marriage, nope, he met a young naive girl who's own dad had just left her mom, and he had that girls commitement , so he was outta there, bye bye. He wasn't going to take a chance on losing the prize. Clearly, another selfish human who didn't even care to see if the marriage, which wasn't really bad either, could be saved. My daughter is so pretty, much more so than the boyish dull looking girl my son in law is with, but, as my brother (quite the ladies man he is) explained to me, no dude is going to choose a 40 year old over a 24 year old. Especailly one like my son in law, obese and approaching 40 himself (he is 5 years younger than my daughter). So I suppose no amount of counseling would have changed anything.

I feel so very sad reading your replies Eugenia I feel you pushing your daughter away from you and have no doubt she has felt it for a long time and that is why she finds time with you so terribly exhausting.

Oh dear. It just keeps getting worse.

Just to let everyone know, those who wish me well, I appreciate and I am looking at some of the advice. There was one about Emeshment? I'm not sure. I do love a bit hard when it comes to my kids and grandkids, but Idk I don't quite think it's emeshment. I have kept a lot of boundries over the years; I understand it more than most, because my dear mother's flaw was that she was overprotective, overinvolved. I know it was out of love, but I also knew how sometimes it felt a bit smoothering. So I always tried to keep that in mind with my kids and many times would step back so to speak when I felt I could maybe intrude rather than help. Relationships are complicated, but for me, what's not complicated is simple, basic, love and respect. Show me that and I'm the easiest frigging person to get along with, more than willing to sacrifice, help out, stay out of things or stay in things whatever is wanted. I never demand of anyone, although I have to say, many demands have been and still are being made of me. This is what the therapist has seen and is encouraging me not to allow. I went to her with the idea of trying to see if I could improve or what I might be doing wrong and she didn't agree I was doing anything wrong. She did provide me with suggestions to improve, as we all can, and help me not react emotionally when I am attacked. That's my achilles heel.....emotions.

Oh dear indeed

I've tried to be a good mom. I have noticed something odd, though...the mom's I've known who really don't care as much, put themselves first in their own lives seem to have the kids that are just begging for their love. It's weird how the mothers who love to no bounds end up being pushed aside. Maybe it's just human nature to want what you can't have and when you have it, not want it. Anyway, it's one thing to have an issue with a grown son or daughter but it's another when that son or daughter projects and involves their children in it, trys to ruin and take the love that a grandchild and grandparent have. It's just evil, sorry to say, no matter what issues my daughter has with me or I with her. And to start hurting other family members, like my sweet brother in law, nope, NOT acceptable under any circumstance is that right or ok for my daughter to do. Sorry, that's where I draw the line, when there is no compassion or caring of someone who doesn't deserve that. This is a hard thing for me, to realize how hollow my daughter has become. It's not about me anymore, it's how she is treating the whole family and it's plain wrong.

Hey, and while I'm at it. Sure, there are some horrible parents out there. There are also some horrible kids too. They use "my mommy and daddy don't understand me, so I'm allowed to be a dk to everyone I meet". I'm allowed to hurt people that love me, just because I can and it makes me feel so special and now I don't have anyone calling me out on all the bad behaviors and ill deeds I do. I can get all kinds of sympathy and love no matter how mean I am because of it. If anyone thinks this can't possibly be true, stay in your bubble of denial, it's ok nice and warm there. Truth isn't always easy to face, I certainly don't like it either but I'm not going to deny it. And please, don't even talk to me about the kids who had abusive parents, because this is NOT what I am talking about. It's the spoiled brats who justifiy their own terrible behaviors, using their parents as the justification, the excuse to be however selfish they want to be. Spoiled by too much love I guess, if it possible, well, anything is. Now I get what my mom mentioned to me long ago, which I just didn't understand......... one day she said to me out of the blue, I think you are spoiling your kids. I didn't know what she meant, I just smiled and went on. Now I get it, mom. You saw what I didn't. Wish you were here so I could let you know, you were right. Well, that rant may be too much for some people. I get it. We all like our blue pills.

Luminance

I feel so very sad reading your replies Eugenia I feel you pushing your daughter away from you and have no doubt she has felt it for a long time and that is why she finds time with you so terribly exhausting.

You know what makes me cry most days now? The sadness knowing that it's the opposite of that. She has pushed me away, so much so that some days I forget I still love her. She literally is alienating me from her. I'm finding myself being less and less caring of what happens in her life; before all I could think about was her pain. I'm not sure how this is possible, but I guess you can only beat a dog so long, then....??

Eugenia be glad you didn't read some of the deleted posts they where vile. I reported them and it turns out it was a troll who had got back on GN not only on this thread but on another one as well.

Best to ignore unkind posts and only response to ones that are balanced and offer support and advice if you want it.

Looks like we need to all on the watch for trolls. But they give themselves away by saying the same old thing and the way they word things .

Whiff, thank you for reporting them. I don't understand trolls, I wish I had the extra time to go around stirring up things, don't you?

Eugenic, you need to distance a bit more. It's not doing you any good. You can' make anyone care that doesn't, as I have found out.., Life is not fair we just have to carry on.

Oh my, and trolls will go to all lengths, apparentely. One just PM'd me to tell me who I am, as though they know anything about me or my children's upbringing. Like it's not at all possible a daughter could simply decide rejecting her own mom somehow makes her powerful again. I mean, it must be the most devastating powerless feeling to have a husband dump you without even trying to fix a so called bad marriage. I know better. He tried to pretend something was going on but only 2 months before the end, he was building a new gazebo in their back yard; talking about moving from their condo to a home, impregnated her as well. He tried to cover some of it up by telling my son the pregnancy was an accident. My daughter confirmed to me at the time it was being done that they were trying, plus when I asked my son in law if the marriage was bad and you were going to leave, why did you plan another kid and his own answer was, it was both their decision. Ok, so? That's still not an accidental pregnancy dip stick. Good lord, my daughter picked one, didn't she? Left her powerless and hurt. Now I'm paying for it.

She thought I wasn't worthy of that because I married a controlling man(her dad). In fact, when she married hers, she used to brag how much better a choice she made than me....oooh more irony there, for sure. I mean, hers just up and left, didn't even consider the marriage counseling she wanted to do to save the marriage, nope, he met a young naive girl who's own dad had just left her mom, and he had that girls commitement , so he was outta there, bye bye

Eugenia can you see how nasty that sounds? You sound positively gleeful that her husband left her. You really need to step back, find something you enjoy in life and accept your DD doesn't want your over involvement in her life. If you don't I think you will lose her, and her children, from your life. You clearly don't want that so think carefully.

Allsorts

Eugenic, you need to distance a bit more. It's not doing you any good. You can' make anyone care that doesn't, as I have found out.., Life is not fair we just have to carry on.

I understand what you are saying, and you are right....they either care or they don't. It will always hurt. But ironically, it's been a little freeing. The pain I felt for my daughter's loss of her husband has almost dissappeared...well, not completely, sometimes I get sad for her still. But now most of the time, I don't feel that anymore. I can be at peace with it, finally. It was a constant pain for several years. Now I guess I've pretty much stopped caring as much. So something good, anyway. In fact at this point, the grandkids are my focus. Hopefully she does not ruin them. That will be the last straw and I won't look back. Then all I can hope is heaven really exists and my old little girl will be there when I go. I've almost lost all my faith, but lately I've realize I get so much love from my grandkids, perhaps, there is someone up there who is giving me a sign that love still exists and happiness will prevail, one way or another. Again, thank you for your sincere comment.

Eugenia report to GNHQ about the PM the troll sent you. I had one sent to me and reported they where banned. I didn't know how the sent it from the PM so had to write it down by hand then type it to GNHQ. Once you have sent it block the person from sending you a PM .

Whatever you do don't engage with the troll. I know it's upsetting. But I just got angry 😡 about it . I call the trolls saddo's because that's what they are . And the bad language one troll used on a thread was disgusting.

Just ignore negative comments and report any nasty ones. It's all any of use can do.

I have no idea why they love attacking people who are estranged . Thankfully they leave vulnerable forums alone . Not saying people who are estranged aren't vulnerable. But they could do a lot of damage on bereavement and health forums .

theworriedwell

*She thought I wasn't worthy of that because I married a controlling man(her dad). In fact, when she married hers, she used to brag how much better a choice she made than me....oooh more irony there, for sure. I mean, hers just up and left, didn't even consider the marriage counseling she wanted to do to save the marriage, nope, he met a young naive girl who's own dad had just left her mom, and he had that girls commitement , so he was outta there, bye bye*

Eugenia can you see how nasty that sounds? You sound positively gleeful that her husband left her. You really need to step back, find something you enjoy in life and accept your DD doesn't want your over involvement in her life. If you don't I think you will lose her, and her children, from your life. You clearly don't want that so think carefully.

Gleeful? Either you misunderstand my communication or I'm not communicating well. I do tend to be sarcastic and well, what's the word for when you are being so real about something you are emoting your disgust about the whole thing? Is there a word? It's not exactly sarcasm....IDK. I'm just angry that he left like he did, like a complete jerk , just lookie what I found bye bye now. I mean, clearly the man fooled my daughter and me BIG time. I mean, she used to say he wasn't like other guys, he was more loyal, patient, etc. Actually, my reaction to her saying things to me like how her choice in men was better than mine, do you know what my answer was? I'd say you are right, and I'm glad. I am happy you found someone I could not. I had nothing but pure joy for her hard work, her patience in making sure he was the one, as they did not marry for 9 years after they started dating! That's a long time. Now yeah, I'm flippant about the whole story, it's because it's an ironic, piece of garbage story, and admitting that is the truthful. I'm just one of those like my mom, speak the ugly truth, if it is indeed the truth. He disappointed me too, I was really thinking I had a second son. How he could turn out completely the opposite of what my daughter and I thought he was is beyond anything I could have imagined. Some days, I find myself not believing it, but it's what it is. A few days before my daughter called me and told me what was happening, I was actually bragging to friends we hadn't seen in ages, that my daughter found this fantastic husband and I was so happy for her, expecting her 2nd kid and all. What irony was that as well, I couldn't believe what happened to tell you the truth and I am still shocked actually that it happened. Sorry, I think you just misunderstood my statement. It was meant to be sarcastic or whatever they call it.

Whiff

Eugenia report to GNHQ about the PM the troll sent you. I had one sent to me and reported they where banned. I didn't know how the sent it from the PM so had to write it down by hand then type it to GNHQ. Once you have sent it block the person from sending you a PM .

Whatever you do don't engage with the troll. I know it's upsetting. But I just got angry 😡 about it . I call the trolls saddo's because that's what they are . And the bad language one troll used on a thread was disgusting.

Just ignore negative comments and report any nasty ones. It's all any of use can do.

I have no idea why they love attacking people who are estranged . Thankfully they leave vulnerable forums alone . Not saying people who are estranged aren't vulnerable. But they could do a lot of damage on bereavement and health forums .

Thank you so much! Yes, I reported and did not engage. It was clearly nasty and I know a response to that is what they want. I so appreciate your concern and help!

Eugenia, you posted on page one of this thread that your D has a new boyfriend, so although the pain of being betrayed by her husband may still be with her, she is rebuilding her life and moving on.

It may be helpful if you could work with your counsellor to move beyond this too. You're clearly still extremely angry with your ex s.i.l. and if your D's aware of this, she may be finding it difficult to be with you because she feels you're holding her back from moving on with her life.

Take a step back emotionally from your D and your GC. It's important not to see your AC and their children as a sole or main source of personal happiness.

If you can do this, it should help you feel a little more relaxed overall and enable you to loosen your grip on your relationship with them. I'm speaking metaphorically of course.

When we're terrified of losing a relationship with a loved one, the natural reaction can be to cling onto it to such an extent that it's that very behaviour that can push those in that relationship, even further away.

Smileless2012

*Eugenia*, you posted on page one of this thread that your D has a new boyfriend, so although the pain of being betrayed by her husband may still be with her, she is rebuilding her life and moving on.

It may be helpful if you could work with your counsellor to move beyond this too. You're clearly still extremely angry with your ex s.i.l. and if your D's aware of this, she may be finding it difficult to be with you because she feels you're holding her back from moving on with her life.

Take a step back emotionally from your D and your GC. It's important not to see your AC and their children as a sole or main source of personal happiness.

If you can do this, it should help you feel a little more relaxed overall and enable you to loosen your grip on your relationship with them. I'm speaking metaphorically of course.

When we're terrified of losing a relationship with a loved one, the natural reaction can be to cling onto it to such an extent that it's that very behaviour that can push those in that relationship, even further away.

Yes, you are right. I don't know if extreme anger is a part of grieving/hurting, mb. I was so hurt by what he did to her, and how I believed in him, basically only because she believed in him so much, I thought she knew him so well I decided to believe it too. I was thrilled and happy for her and as I just told someone else here, I would always tell others what a find he was for her. I valued what I thought he felt towards my daughter and that she was assured it was for the long haul. I valued that wayyy more than a guy who made more money, let's say, or a guy who was more handsome. Although the handsome ones are always a bit nice to have around, aren't they haha? But I really felt my son in law was part of our family, and he did treat me and the rest of the family well. So needless to say, the betrayal was overwhelming; to this day it's still hard for me to think about it without a bit of disbelief and still a bit of shock at times. Like, what happened? Like a ball just whizzed by your head and you go where did that come from? So I believe some of the hurt gives way to anger. Lots of it at times. And yet, I know statistically, men prefer younger women. It's a matter of if they can get one. And, he never knew what it's like for his parents to break up because his dad died and to this day his mom is still in love with him, never dated after he died. So really, I do understand my son in law does not know what the pain he caused my daughter and then 2 year old grandson feels like. Innocent, in a way I guess. I am more livid over the girl that enticed him; her dad left her momfor a younger woman and she had to move half across the country afterwards, leaving friends and a brother behind. She knows the pain a homewrecker can cause. Yet she easily inflicted this on innocent people; she was young, had choices, could have left a married man alone and found someone else. Plenty of time and choices at age 21. So yes, I am very angry with my son in law, but do consider the weakness men have, or the wanting men have, for the fountain of youth. My daughter knew I was angry at him, and at first it was acceptable but in her on going denial of what he did, she started acting like I was in the wrong because she said he was still nice to her, co parented well, etc. Well, I got tired of that attitude real fast...so, if it's wrong to stand by your daughter, why do it? That's when I've opened up communication with him again and have extended the olive branch. He was very cordial and accepting. I realized I never had a problem with him personally; our relationship was fine. So, I've let him know he is still part of the family and message him often, wishing happy birthdays and what not. I told my daughter this too, if that's what she wants, I'm good with it. Deep down, I still have anger towards him, but I meant what I said about family. He is. He is the father of those beautiful grandkids and I know they would rather have family be together than not. So I put aside my feelings and judgements for the grandkids and figure if my daughter is going to defend him now, why worry about what he did to her anymore. Seriously, it's a waste. And just like that......I've been able to distance my emotions from her. But.....it still hurts and I guess always will. And I've realized, she's just not my daughter anymore. That girl died a long time ago. I must try to accept that and just be grateful full estrangement has not happened to me as far as the grandkids are concerned. If it was just her at this point, I think I actually could just let go. Hurt would still be there, but not any worse than it is right now. At least I wouldn't constantly be judged and harrassed anymore, that would be the plus. But it isn't just her, and I love the grandkids. They are worth the trouble.

I think what is needed here is a little more empathy on your part. You seem very focused on how this impacts you and other family members ... it doesn't matter what plans were made, if she is feeling upset and depressed and not up to it then so be it. It doesn't seem like it's personal but you're choosing to take it that way. I would ask her to go for a coffee together or take her for a nice lunch one on one. Somewhere quiet where it's just a mother and daughter sat together with no kids around. Please do not talk to her about how you feel or how it's impacting you, put the focus on her. Tell her that it must be super difficult for her right now and that, as her mother, you can see she's upset and not her usual self and ask if there's anything she needs from you or anything you can do to support and help her through this. Tell her you want to listen to her and help her process this grief. Give her a hug. Be a shoulder to cry on. Please don't give advice such as "You just need to move forward" or "You need to distract yourself with other things" or "You need to move on" (this really isn't helpful!) just allow her to feel how she feel and be there for her. If she doesn't feel up to doing something, don't judge her for it, just accept it and move on but she hasn't got the capacity to give 50% to this relationship at the moment so she may need you to pick up a little more of the effort. If you use this as an opportunity to truly bond with her, then if you find yourself in a situation where you can't give 50% then she can give more and support you. Hope all works out for you both - she must just feel heartbroken right now and she's doing her best to put on a brave face when she likely doesn't feel like facing anyone.

Eugenia

Oh my, and trolls will go to all lengths, apparentely. One just PM'd me to tell me who I am, as though they know anything about me or my children's upbringing. Like it's not at all possible a daughter could simply decide rejecting her own mom somehow makes her powerful again. I mean, it must be the most devastating powerless feeling to have a husband dump you without even trying to fix a so called bad marriage. I know better. He tried to pretend something was going on but only 2 months before the end, he was building a new gazebo in their back yard; talking about moving from their condo to a home, impregnated her as well. He tried to cover some of it up by telling my son the pregnancy was an accident. My daughter confirmed to me at the time it was being done that they were trying, plus when I asked my son in law if the marriage was bad and you were going to leave, why did you plan another kid and his own answer was, it was both their decision. Ok, so? That's still not an accidental pregnancy dip stick. Good lord, my daughter picked one, didn't she? Left her powerless and hurt. Now I'm paying for it.

We’ve all had them, virtually. The one I got was so over the top, I just laughed and reported. Trolls always exist, unhappily. Unhappy people with a strange view of life. 🤷‍♀️

Best wishes 🌺

How does your daughter feel about your relationship with her ex? My mother did this, in fact his whole family were visiting her and it was all lovely. In the end I asked her to choose, she did choose me but I felt she was so disloyal to me to be friends with this man who had hurt me so much.

Mamasperspective

I think what is needed here is a little more empathy on your part. You seem very focused on how this impacts you and other family members ... it doesn't matter what plans were made, if she is feeling upset and depressed and not up to it then so be it. It doesn't seem like it's personal but you're choosing to take it that way. I would ask her to go for a coffee together or take her for a nice lunch one on one. Somewhere quiet where it's just a mother and daughter sat together with no kids around. Please do not talk to her about how you feel or how it's impacting you, put the focus on her. Tell her that it must be super difficult for her right now and that, as her mother, you can see she's upset and not her usual self and ask if there's anything she needs from you or anything you can do to support and help her through this. Tell her you want to listen to her and help her process this grief. Give her a hug. Be a shoulder to cry on. Please don't give advice such as "You just need to move forward" or "You need to distract yourself with other things" or "You need to move on" (this really isn't helpful!) just allow her to feel how she feel and be there for her. If she doesn't feel up to doing something, don't judge her for it, just accept it and move on but she hasn't got the capacity to give 50% to this relationship at the moment so she may need you to pick up a little more of the effort. If you use this as an opportunity to truly bond with her, then if you find yourself in a situation where you can't give 50% then she can give more and support you. Hope all works out for you both - she must just feel heartbroken right now and she's doing her best to put on a brave face when she likely doesn't feel like facing anyone.

Thank you for your advice, but it's all been done by me in the last 5 years since it happened. The empathy, the offers of support and help, letting her stay away from other family events without a fuss that first whole year. The last few years it's all been about what she needs. Yet she has rejected me anyway, she never takes me up on treating her and her alone to a lunch, a movie, etc. I don't see her now except on visits with grandkids. It's been a gradual disconnect between us. I can do not right in her eyes. I have tried to accept I do not have a daughter anymore. We are not technically estranged physically but emotionally, very much so and that is 100% her choice, not mine. Before the breakup of her marriage it was like she couldn't get enough of me. Her husband too...thete were times when I would actually bow out gracefully of some invites of places to go because I told them they should have private family days with their new son once in awhile. I would catch the next trip. I was thrilled they wanted to include me and hubby when he wasn't working and we did do alot together. On top of that my daughter and I went out together for lunches and such. It was wonderful.