Estrangement isn't only non contact. It's lack of empathy and love. It's selfishness.

Oh, and I forgot the most important thing is that there may have been some jealously on the sister in law's part....she saw how involved I was in my daughters life, and unfortuanately, as I even witnessed myself, her mother is not as involved in her life at all. The sister in law's mom's attitude is more like take my as I am or don't, I don't care I'm not changing sort of attitude. But here I was, putting my daughter the center of the universe, so I cannot help but think the sister in law was jealous of that. I do know the sister in law was even angry, at first, when my daughter started dating her brother. My daughter told me the sister in law yelled at her brother, saying NO!!! I had her first, she was my friend first, etc. She was angry for quite awhile at her brother. Seriously, that's messed up. But, her influence reigns now in my daughter. So while of course, my son in law really screwed up things, his sister comes along and makes it worse. I remember besides the I don't care I got from the sister in law, I also could tell she really was enjoying the fact that my daughter was drifing from me. I don't speak to her anymore, believe me, I don't need that.

BlessedArt

And no, parental alienation is not the same thing as a parent deciding an extended family member should spend less time with their children. You are elan extended family member. Grandparents and parents are not equal. Kids need their parents. You are bonus, as all of us grans are. You criticise her mothering with such disdain it’s completely delusional to think she and her children do not sense this. Please be more self-aware. She’s allowed to spend as much time with her children as she wants.

Her parenting has caused her son to have food issues and barely eats. She was and still is very critical of his food choices but her daughter can eat just about anything and it's ok. So yeah, her parenting could improve. However, she is good at getting them to settle down when they go wild, though, without any sort of physical action, I will give her that. Is that disdain...hmmm I do not even recall criticizing her parenting on this page, my focus has been about how she treats me, not them. So don't be picking fights that don't exist here. And I never once have told her she was doing anything wrong. Once in awhile if something would go way wrong, I would ask if something else would work, make suggestion and ask what she thought. I'd never ever try to tell her what to do. If she had a different idea than me, I'd say well that might be best. I have always tried to be agreeable when it came to her mothering and I realize she is in charge of that. But, she tries to be in charge of me, and that's not right. And here's the rub on her being ALLOWED spending time with them......that's really not a priority for her, except when she wants to exclude me or my husband. She sticks them in camps in the summer when she Does Not Work (teachers get summer off) and on vacation times, after school stuff even on her 2 weekdays off. I know something about enjoying just "me and the kids" time, I enjoyed that myself....even though I had no problem sharing them with my mom and MIL, it was very relaxing to just hang. So sure, I get it, but the idea of sticking them into every program out there and then complain about not getting enough time with them is kinda nuts.

M0nica

*Eugenia, I regret to say this, but you are the problem, not anyone else in the family.

After me telling a therapist ALL I do that bothers my daughter, and her reactions/words, she concluded I am a victim of blame shifting and scapegoating. So I regret to say this, but I'll go with the professionals opinion. And, I have been able to control myself better and this results in better visits overall. Of course, it still doesn't stop my daughter to express her disdain with me, sometimes so subtle and unfounded. Today in fact, right before they had to leave, my grandson started choking on a carrot; while he managed to get it out of his throat, it was clear he needed some water and my husband told me to get him some. My daughter with a tone of voice of disapproval and in a very stern way, said to my husband oh she didn't even get out their waterbottles today. But truth is I had; she just wanted to try and criticize. They were both filled and I located his in a couple seconds and gave it to my grandson. So when she realized she was wrong, that was that. It's always something with her and it's usually completely wrong, unwarrented, without a pinch of proof.

Delila

Delila

Pretence and acting, whilst hiding deep dislike and resentment, do not create a good basis on which to repair a relationship. You say you are doing this in order to maintain your closeness with your grandchildren, but they will sense the underlying tensions between you and their mother, and will be confused.

She’ll never know how I feel anymore” - but she will, and she does, and so will your grandchildren.

Yes, as I said in this earlier post Gramsto5 - they won’t be fooled.

But they are. We had a great day today, the kids and I. My daughter, trying her best to criticize, came up short. Before they left today, my grandson choked on a carrot, as he got it out, he needed water and my husband said where is his water bottle. My daughter, try as she may to criticize/make me look bad, said with disdain in her voice "She (me) didn't give them their water bottles today!" I said yes I did, after a quick locating of where he put his, handed it to him to drink. Guess she's having a hard time lately finding ammo.

You sound rather unwell Eugenia and I think you need more help with your mental health and should see a doctor.

Luminance

You sound rather unwell Eugenia and I think you need more help with your mental health and should see a doctor.

I have been abused and hurt, human being with feelings...that's not mental illness doctor Luminance. So what I should do now, is figure out the best way to handle it all and just hope someday, maybe, if I stop the abuse and at the same time try to reconnect with my daughter, that there is still good in her somewhere and it may return. The Tin Man had a heart all along; Darth Vadar was good still deep down; in all these fictions, some truth lies so I will just hope someday things will change. But for right now, I'll just allow myself to have my feelings. Today I went somewhere special to me and just started thinking, this really isn't my problem. It's the problem of abusive narcisssitic people in my daughters life that have effected her. I haven't changed, been me all these years and she didn't always feel this way., and started to wonder if mb that is something that could change and give her the benefit of the doubt that perhaps one day, she will start to go back to being herself. I think mb I've just been playing into things, allowing too much ammunition against me, too upset to see that what I needed to do was stop explaining . Kinda like Mary Poppins I suppose.

So, I reached out today to do something with her, without the kids, as I have done for 5 years now, with no expectation. I was very surprised, she said yes. First time in 5 years. Idk, could be a start.

Well, keep quiet, and just go with it 👍

DiamondLily

Well, keep quiet, and just go with it 👍

I will. But with caution. It sucks to never be able to be close to your own kid, keep so much of yourself inside. It's hard when you can't trust them anymore.

Well, sometimes, in order to keep the family roadshow on track, we all have to just hold back with opinions/over involvement, and just suck it up. 🤷‍♀️

That’s not to say anyone should be abusing/.insulting you, of course. If that happens, just quietly walk away.

But, there seems to be no end of friction in your family - if you want to see your GCs you need to get on better terms with your daughter, and make sure you treat the GCs the same.

Hopefully, it’ll work out for you. 🙂

DiamondLily

Well, sometimes, in order to keep the family roadshow on track, we all have to just hold back with opinions/over involvement, and just suck it up. 🤷‍♀️

That’s not to say anyone should be abusing/.insulting you, of course. If that happens, just quietly walk away.

But, there seems to be no end of friction in your family - if you want to see your GCs you need to get on better terms with your daughter, and make sure you treat the GCs the same.

Hopefully, it’ll work out for you. 🙂

Yes, I doubt the friction will end. I just need to figure how to handle it effectively. Ignoring it won't help I'm sure, will only give power; when you let people have an opinion about you they think it's truth. You have to point out it is not, but, without arguing and defending too much or they think well you must be guilty trying to defend so much. It really is a fine line, damned if you do, damned if you don't. I have a terrible time remembering not to engage in too much defense, give too many excuses, because then it makes me look like I have been guilty.....I've been told by therapist to pick my battles, don't engage when it's not important and at the same time when it is, state facts, never apologize other than expressing sorry for their feelings, rather than anything you did. It's true, sometimes it's just what they feel, not fact. Sometimes it's generalizations, and so ask for examples/proof. If there is none, end the conversation. But all this is easier said than done, but I will work on it and hope. But in reading all the stories of estranged parents, it does seem sometimes it only takes a change in the wind (yes, another Mary Poppins reference) for AC's to estrange. So that's worrying. That's also why I'm pissed off; I get it if there is abuse, or attempts to break up a marriage, etc...... but these poor people cut off from kids and grandkids for no real reason is horrible and I really feel it takes a really selfish heartless type to do that to anyone, much less family.

Ignoring bad/unacceptable behaviour doesn't necessarily give the perpetrator power Eugenia especially if they're adults.

Not reacting to it often removes the driving force behind it. Your D appears to know which buttons to press; why? Because you react accordingly.

Ignore any generalisations. Disagree by simply saying 'I disagree', don't engage in a conversation about it, what's the point when the fact that you don't agree wont change.

I'm not a therapist but in your position I wouldn't be picking my battles, I would refuse to have any but as DL's suggested keep your opinions, if you know expressing them will be a source of friction, to yourself. Don't be over involved and basically suck it up.

It wont be easy and I'm not sure how successful I'd have been if we'd been in your situation before we were estranged. We're some of those parents you refer too; estranged for 12 years from our youngest son and only GC.

I don't envy the position you're in but you're not estranged yet so I think you need to decide what matters the most. It is a fine line; too often your are damned if you do and damned if you don't but you are still in a position to walk that line. Once you're estranged there's nothing you can do.

Your daughter is obviously struggling. Give it time and try not to make demands. Things will come around.

Smileless2012

Ignoring bad/unacceptable behaviour doesn't necessarily give the perpetrator power Eugenia especially if they're adults.

Not reacting to it often removes the driving force behind it. Your D appears to know which buttons to press; why? Because you react accordingly.

Ignore any generalisations. Disagree by simply saying 'I disagree', don't engage in a conversation about it, what's the point when the fact that you don't agree wont change.

I'm not a therapist but in your position I wouldn't be picking my battles, I would refuse to have any but as DL's suggested keep your opinions, if you know expressing them will be a source of friction, to yourself. Don't be over involved and basically suck it up.

It wont be easy and I'm not sure how successful I'd have been if we'd been in your situation before we were estranged. We're some of those parents you refer too; estranged for 12 years from our youngest son and only GC.

I don't envy the position you're in but you're not estranged yet so I think you need to decide what matters the most. It is a fine line; too often your are damned if you do and damned if you don't but you are still in a position to walk that line. Once you're estranged there's nothing you can do.

A very well thought out post, thankyou. The only time I do not ignore is when it is in front of the grandkids; I know by personal experience kids will form opinions off false information too easily..... otherwise, you are right, why give it any attention or drive? I failed to see what I was feeding into and am focusing on changing that about myself. It's tough because I've always been a forthcoming person, always shared what I thought. But, that's over now. I am so, so very sorry to hear of your estrangement of 12 years and only GC!! Oh my god, you truly have my sorrow! How awful for you, it is not right, I just don't understand this at all.

Homestead62

Your daughter is obviously struggling. Give it time and try not to make demands. Things will come around.

Good advice. I would never dream of demanding anything I've always just wanted to be considered and a part of my kids and grandkids lives. I really think she is struggling still like you said, even though I'm sure if you asked her, she would say no. I hope you are right that things will come around. At least in general and where grandkids are concerned, but it's clear, I lost my daughter; the one that was before all this. I miss her. I miss the family we all were when her husband was still around. They always focus on the 2 married people as the ones who's lives get screwed but sometimes they are not the only ones.

I feel sorry for your daughter everyone knows better than she does by the sound if it. This has to impact in the children,

Quite right Allsorts

Allsorts

I feel sorry for your daughter everyone knows better than she does by the sound if it. This has to impact in the children,

Here, let me allow you to buy a clue...she thinks I and my husband are wrong about literally everything....that's half the problem , she thinks she is a much better parent, has pretty much told me so......so I think you may have simply reversed the situation. Only impact I worry about with the kids is that they think gma and gpa are 2 idiots.

Eugenia

Smileless2012

Ignoring bad/unacceptable behaviour doesn't necessarily give the perpetrator power Eugenia especially if they're adults.

Not reacting to it often removes the driving force behind it. Your D appears to know which buttons to press; why? Because you react accordingly.

Ignore any generalisations. Disagree by simply saying 'I disagree', don't engage in a conversation about it, what's the point when the fact that you don't agree wont change.

I'm not a therapist but in your position I wouldn't be picking my battles, I would refuse to have any but as DL's suggested keep your opinions, if you know expressing them will be a source of friction, to yourself. Don't be over involved and basically suck it up.

It wont be easy and I'm not sure how successful I'd have been if we'd been in your situation before we were estranged. We're some of those parents you refer too; estranged for 12 years from our youngest son and only GC.

I don't envy the position you're in but you're not estranged yet so I think you need to decide what matters the most. It is a fine line; too often your are damned if you do and damned if you don't but you are still in a position to walk that line. Once you're estranged there's nothing you can do.

A very well thought out post, thankyou. The only time I do not ignore is when it is in front of the grandkids; I know by personal experience kids will form opinions off false information too easily..... otherwise, you are right, why give it any attention or drive? I failed to see what I was feeding into and am focusing on changing that about myself. It's tough because I've always been a forthcoming person, always shared what I thought. But, that's over now. I am so, so very sorry to hear of your estrangement of 12 years and only GC!! Oh my god, you truly have my sorrow! How awful for you, it is not right, I just don't understand this at all.

My personal experience is that kids can form opinions based on their own personal interactions with someone and not necessarily based off false information. My mum hated her own mother - my grandmother. My mum told me how awful my grandmother was all the time. I didn't believe her because my own experiences with my grandmother were loving and positive. I loved spending time with my grandmother and wanted to see her all the time. This made my mum jealous. When my grandmother died she left me her engagement ring. My mum refused to give it to me as a final act of revenge. She never wears it and keeps it locked away. In my opinion, my mum's behaviour and attempts to turn me against my grandmother say more about her than they do about my grandmother.

I appreciate your sharing this. I hope you are right in my case. I don't know if all kids have the intuition with manipulative parents that you did with your mom. But I can hope. Thankyou.

Eugenia, you don't need to buy me a clue as you so rudely put it. You couldn't possibly be at fault. Opinions differ.

Eugenia Please listen to Smileless. She knows what she is talking about.

Raising awareness about parental and grandparent alienation.

chng.it/9f2hZKj24Q

Mj 😊

This is an old post. I remember it well.