Estrangement isn't only non contact. It's lack of empathy and love. It's selfishness.

Our nearest and dearest do sometimes disappoint us.

I am really uncomfortable with that phrase, so often it simply means that our nearest and dearest haven't done as we told them to do, or what we expected to do.

Our children are separate and completely different people to us and we should no more expect them to do what we want for them than anyone else. Nor should we expect them to react to things they way we do. We need to step back and see them as we would any other person and respond to their actions and reactions as we would with anyone else. just accepting that they see and do things differently.

For goodness sake, it’s the same thing repeated.

Caleo

Eugenia, loss and grief are part of life. It is normal for you to feel as you do. I wish for you that you will accept your feelings, and also accept that your daughter disappoints you. Our nearest and dearest do sometimes disappoint us.

Nobody can tell you if she will change again, but you certainly can hope she will become more friendly towards you.
Anything you can do to show her you are on her side will help her to feel better towards you and her unhappy situation.

Don't make overtures towards people who have hurt her. Don't force yourself upon her or her children. At least pretend to be cheerful when in her company.

Thank you. I am not counting on her changing again, but I would welcome her with open arms if that day came. Right now, all I can do is act.....try to say perfect things, act perfect but without exception I have decided no more apologies. I can say, oh, I'm sorry you feel that way. But no more excuses/apologizing. Unless, of course, I do something purposely with malice. But I'm not one to do that normally, so I'm not worried about that. As I said before, she wants me to get over my anger towards her ex, or at least she pretends to in order to make me look like an ahole. Idk, well, that's a done deal now. It's her doing. If she don't like it, she should have never suggested it. And "pretend" is my middle name at this point, she'll never know how I feel anymore. She blew that when she decided to throw me out of her house for showing tears when she refused my offers to talk about things. She didn't just refuse, she said she'd never confide in me because, well, judging me for being with her father and then smiling as she watched me beg to stay to see the grandkids (they were just getting out of daycare). Then, she wouldn't talk to me for 6 weeks until my husband came back in town (he travels for work) and then insisted I get therapy for my issues. Instead the first therapist told me things like she doesn't respect me; and she was acting like a child. Therapist tried to help me cope. She wasn't as blunt as the one I have now who pinpointed what was wrong and is trying to get me to not engage in arguments, ask logical questions and give logical answers and refuse to give excuses, state facts and ask for proof when an accusation is general or untrue. So now I do those things and also pretend to enjoy being around her, as right now, I don't.

As I said before, she wants me to get over my anger towards her ex, or at least she pretends to in order to make me look like an ahole. Idk, well, that's a done deal now. It's her doing. If she don't like it, she should have never suggested it.

Suggesting you get over your anger towards him is not the same as you socialising with him and the other woman and inviting them to your home. Can you not see that? I've asked before but although you have responded to me more than once you have ignored that question.

Pretence and acting, whilst hiding deep dislike and resentment, do not create a good basis on which to repair a relationship. You say you are doing this in order to maintain your closeness with your grandchildren, but they will sense the underlying tensions between you and their mother, and will be confused.

She’ll never know how I feel anymore” - but she will, and she does, and so will your grandchildren.

I think we are on a loop here. Eugenia back off from your daughter and GCs for now. This will give all of you breathing space, and I suggest you find a new counsellor.
You can keep rehashing everything but that is what it boils down to.
Whether your daughter is selfish etc., or whether you are over involved. Just back off.

theworriedwell

*As I said before, she wants me to get over my anger towards her ex, or at least she pretends to in order to make me look like an ahole. Idk, well, that's a done deal now. It's her doing. If she don't like it, she should have never suggested it.*

Suggesting you get over your anger towards him is not the same as you socialising with him and the other woman and inviting them to your home. Can you not see that? I've asked before but although you have responded to me more than once you have ignored that question.

I'm sorry. Thought I made it clear, she suggested families that are split act better, they get together for things. I told her I can do that. So that's what I'll do. Not everything, mind you, just here and there when it seems logical.

Babs03

I think we are on a loop here. Eugenia back off from your daughter and GCs for now. This will give all of you breathing space, and I suggest you find a new counsellor.
You can keep rehashing everything but that is what it boils down to.
Whether your daughter is selfish etc., or whether you are over involved. Just back off.

I won't estrange myself from my grandkids, so that would be a big no. She's already engaging in a mild form of grandparent alienation; look it up. It's similar to parent alienation. She makes me the bad guy in front of kids, last minute oh I just want to chill alone with the kids, havent' in awhile. Well, if she'd stop putting them into camps/care everytime there is a holiday or something, maybe she's have more chill time with them and stop screwing mine up. So yeah, I'm gonna help her alienate my grandkids from me by backing off? That's laughable. Especially when alienaters like to take whatever you do and still tell kids you are wrong. I just saw a video on this, and they said if they think you are too involved, they complain, and then if you decide to back off, then they complain you are not around and simply don't care about the grandkids. It's a no win scenario. So yeah, I'm not about to help her with that.

Delila

Pretence and acting, whilst hiding deep dislike and resentment, do not create a good basis on which to repair a relationship. You say you are doing this in order to maintain your closeness with your grandchildren, but they will sense the underlying tensions between you and their mother, and will be confused.

She’ll never know how I feel anymore” - but she will, and she does, and so will your grandchildren.

Not interested anymore in repair, only if she is and so far it's clear she is not. She won't, I guarentee. I'm learning to control my emotions very well now, secret is, when nobody's around, I let it out, the crying, the cursing, then I'm ok to continue while thinking and getting educated on this dynamic. Besides therapist, there are lots of videos/articles on grandparent alienation, narcissism control, etc. She fits a lot of those descriptions, so now at least I know what it is. I still give her some slack, because I am not so hollow that I do not realize the immese tragedy of her life not turning out like she had hoped.....she used to watch the movie "UP" and felt that was her husband and her. Both of them loved that movie. But there wasn't a young mistress in that movie. So I get it, and accepted most of the things she inflicted. But it's reached a point where I see her manipulate my grandson, as though retracting herself from me wasn't enough. Well, it is and I won't accept more than that.

Eugenia

theworriedwell

As I said before, she wants me to get over my anger towards her ex, or at least she pretends to in order to make me look like an ahole. Idk, well, that's a done deal now. It's her doing. If she don't like it, she should have never suggested it.

Suggesting you get over your anger towards him is not the same as you socialising with him and the other woman and inviting them to your home. Can you not see that? I've asked before but although you have responded to me more than once you have ignored that question.

I'm sorry. Thought I made it clear, she suggested families that are split act better, they get together for things. I told her I can do that. So that's what I'll do. Not everything, mind you, just here and there when it seems logical.

Don't you think she was talking about her and her ex co-parenting together was a good thing? Are you sure she wanted you inviting her ex and his new partner to socialise with you?

I think lots of this is due to misunderstanding and maybe a bit of family therapy would be good for you and her.

@Eugenia there is a chance you might be estranged from your GCs anyway if you don’t step back. By that I don’t mean no contact, I mean that right now you are unable to think straight due to being too involved with your daughter and her life.
Put some distance between yourself and your daughter, ease your foot off the pedal, however you want to describe it, but continue seeing the GCs. Her life is her life, leave her to it and get on with your life.

I think you are not ready to step outside of your own wants and feelings and until you do I don’t expect your daughter will be inclined to have you closer.

You are over-involved in her life and won’t listen. We make the beds we lay in. I’m sorry you are going through this but you have the power to get yourself in a better place. I truly hope one day you are a bit more reflective and see that taking a step back would have saved a world of hurt.

And no, parental alienation is not the same thing as a parent deciding an extended family member should spend less time with their children. You are elan extended family member. Grandparents and parents are not equal. Kids need their parents. You are bonus, as all of us grans are. You criticise her mothering with such disdain it’s completely delusional to think she and her children do not sense this. Please be more self-aware. She’s allowed to spend as much time with her children as she wants.

Eugenia I think you should listen to the many wise comments here instead of getting yourself in rather a state reading nonsense articles that will only appear with a specific search.

So, Eugenia, you’re no longer interested in repair, you prefer pretence, play-acting and control. Very stressful all round. Nobody really gains, including you. What sort of relationship is that?

Probably not a sustainable one.

*Eugenia, I regret to say this, but you are the problem, not anyone else in the family.

In an estrangement in general, it is not only the cause that creates the division, but how the parties react to that division

Delila, keeping a cheerful countenance is normal good manners, not "play acting".

Keeping a cheerful countenance is inline with objectively seeking the welfare of her relatives before her own welfare.

Caleo

Delila, keeping a cheerful countenance is normal good manners, not "play acting".

Keeping a cheerful countenance is inline with objectively seeking the welfare of her relatives before her own welfare.

Caleo, quote from Eugenia,

“Right now, all I can do is act.....try to say perfect things, act perfect”

Eugenia’s own words again.

“And " pretend” is my middle name at this point, she'll never know how I feel anymore.”

Delila

Eugenia’s own words again.

“And " pretend” is my middle name at this point, she'll never know how I feel anymore.”

Yes except her poor daughter will know , likely does know and the grandchidren , the golden boy and his sister will also know and it will cost her all of them in the end. Children don’t take to someone who they feel is unkind to their mothers. They will see it for what it is and hopefully be strong. Enough to say this is toxic and unehalrhy and step away, unlike their poor mum who surely sees it and yet keeps putting herself up for it and eve that is seen as. Ot enough by Eugenia. Hopefully this mum recognizes that not pulling back will only teach her children that it’s okay to be treated to such “pretending” as step back herself.

Delila

Pretence and acting, whilst hiding deep dislike and resentment, do not create a good basis on which to repair a relationship. You say you are doing this in order to maintain your closeness with your grandchildren, but they will sense the underlying tensions between you and their mother, and will be confused.

She’ll never know how I feel anymore” - but she will, and she does, and so will your grandchildren.

Yes, as I said in this earlier post Gramsto5 - they won’t be fooled.

Eugenia, You have a therapist who says what you want to hear, which makes him or her a bad one. I think your daughter should distance for the sake of your grandchildren as you don’t listen, you hear what you want to.,They are your daughters children, she says what is right for her own children, not you.

theworriedwell

Eugenia

theworriedwell

As I said before, she wants me to get over my anger towards her ex, or at least she pretends to in order to make me look like an ahole. Idk, well, that's a done deal now. It's her doing. If she don't like it, she should have never suggested it.

Suggesting you get over your anger towards him is not the same as you socialising with him and the other woman and inviting them to your home. Can you not see that? I've asked before but although you have responded to me more than once you have ignored that question.

I'm sorry. Thought I made it clear, she suggested families that are split act better, they get together for things. I told her I can do that. So that's what I'll do. Not everything, mind you, just here and there when it seems logical.

Don't you think she was talking about her and her ex co-parenting together was a good thing? Are you sure she wanted you inviting her ex and his new partner to socialise with you?

I think lots of this is due to misunderstanding and maybe a bit of family therapy would be good for you and her.

Well, I would think the same thing you do, except it was in context of how I didn't (at that time) want to be around her husband and his girlfriend...that's when she mentioned. So IDK, it's possible what you say but it didn't seem that way. And, she mentioned how it is better for kids to see all the family together, not apart. I suppose I could go back thru the massive amount of messages she's sent me and check. Mb another day.

BlessedArt

I think you are not ready to step outside of your own wants and feelings and until you do I don’t expect your daughter will be inclined to have you closer.

You are over-involved in her life and won’t listen. We make the beds we lay in. I’m sorry you are going through this but you have the power to get yourself in a better place. I truly hope one day you are a bit more reflective and see that taking a step back would have saved a world of hurt.

See, I would agree with you. I actually tried to step back in the sense of not bugging her by talking about her ex, trying to focus on things she needed from me. But, I now look back and realize while I was trying to let her have her space, letting her know I was there but didn't impose, I may have let another person step in for me. I know, it's complicated....I can try to simplify; her best friend happens to be her husband's sister; they were friends before. This sister in law, she has some issues which I think she projected onto my daughter in high school......it was then that my daughter started acting different towards me, but, was not really something I would have not expected due to, of course, classic teenage rebellion. I mean, it was very subtle. I didn't have a clue. The sister in law moved away around the time my daugther got involved with her husband, and seemed everything was ok. My daughter was over the moon of course, and loved sharing all the fun details with me about her new love. I was so happy for her. Strange thing too, before her sister in law moved away, she had been in my house several times. One day my son, out of the blue, told me that the sister in law was a piece of...... and I said why?? He said he could tell , she was judgemental, had a chip on her shoulder kinda thing and was mean spirted. He actually said he didn't like the fact his sister (my daughter) was sharing the same thinking/traits of this girl. Well, again, I have never tended to just try and judge people and I kinda thought my son was being a bit picky. But for awhile, he actually didn't like my daughter, his own sister, and I was worried they would actually estrange some day so I would tell him mb his was mistaken and what not, but then, seems my son in law was the ticket to my daughter acting like her old self, especially with the sister in law moved away. Well, after the breakup, guess who stayed at her house for 2 weeks, yep the sister in law and IDK, perhaps between them bonding again and the horror of losing her husband, I feel mb she was looking at me again like she did in high school, only worse this time and just started to treat me badly. This sister in law as I found out later really hates on her own mother, is jealous of her brothers and will just make everything about herself. She also has a huge weight problem and one time when one of her brothers and her mom were talking about their own struggles with weight loss (the mom was talking about hiring a nutritionist), she was in the room, not participating in the conversation but nevertheless got very irritated and kinda got up and left for a minute then complained to my daughter that they were talking about her.....which I saw it, they were not. That's when I thought ok, I think I know why my son didn't like her. She is very self centered and wants to control situations where nobody talks about things in her presence that she doesn't want to hear. I reached out to her once when my daughter and I started having our issues and all she did was say I don't care. Seriously, my daughter looks up to her so much, I think she's become her clone. It's sure as heck my daughter isn't my clone, at all. Anyway, now I regret giving my daughter "space" because I think I let the sister in law have her step in at a very, very vunerable time. So as far as my experience, giving space doesn't always work. But, I'm not arguing your position, as I think it can work with some cases but just not mine. I almost feel if I just pushed away for awhile at this time, she'd be fine about me just going away for good. But, I know the grandkids wouldn't be fine with it.
I actually think backing off might backfire and she'd decide lets just stay away, period. It's just a feeling and I do not want to chance it. But thank you anyway for the advice.