I am just gonna get real about this whole estrangement thing...

My granny was a wonderful wise woman. One of her pieces of wisdom was "you can't spoil a good child with love.". I always tried to remember that with mine and passed the message on to the next generation.

Underscore your poor brother. Reminds me of telling my MIL her 2nd GC was on the way. She sort of pulled a face and made a growling sound and went in the kitchen and started smashing dishes. Of course her story was she was so worried about if we could cope and she couldn't see why her reaction had upset us.

Once I realized I had a choice, and I didn't have to maintain toxic family relationships, it was over. I chose myself, as many people of my generation are doing. It doesn't really matter what others think about what I should be doing.

I would highly suggest finding sources of fulfillment outside of others. You are setting yourself up for perpetual disappointment.

Estrangement is never going away. I happily encourage others to do what's best for them no matter if they are a parent or adult child. Generational trauma will continue as long as people continue to go along with toxic family dynamics that guilt you into running yourself into the ground to maintain the peace. That's why I'm not doing it.

In the end it doesn't matter whose fault it is. No one is perfect, no. I don't expect my mother to be perfect, but I did expect her to be caring and considerate and she isn't so I'm gone.

I suspect estrangement today is spoken of frequently to all and sundry, whilst when I was young people merely didn't interact and just got on living lives unencumbered by toxic people.

Estrangement is not new. My maternal grandfather went to that USA to tell his younger sister not to divorce. They didn’t speak for years. His mother would have nothing to do with her sister who went to the USA lived happily but liked a tipple. My grandfather also threatened to disown my mother if she left my father.

On my father’s side, my grandmother refused to have anything to do with her younger twin sisters. I only found out about this from my second cousin when we met over Ancestry.

I remember as a child my father and uncle having a massive argument. My uncle and father had been to the pub on a Sunday and came back probably a bit worse for wear. My uncle decided to walk all over my mother’s newly seeded lawn. He thought it was funny but dad didn’t.

They didn’t speak for years until my cousin and I helped the meet up 3 days before my father died. They finally buried the hatchet.

Estrangement is not new but may be the result of different social pressures from those in the past. My 2 older daughters went through a period of not really connecting. The both canvassed me for my opinion as to who was right/better etc. I just refused to become involved in their “stuff”. I’m happy to say they have both stepped back, reconsidered and have mended bridges.

NotSpaghetti

I'm not sure I was very clear up above.
I think families/parents were estranged in my youth - but generally, neither side admitted to it. They weren't really getting letters or having family who were "very busy" - they were not going to discuss the real situation.
It was like anything painful... brushed under the carpet.
My mother's pain was for her brother actually. I loved him a lot and so did she but when his son returned maybe 30 years later after her brother doed she couldn't reconcile.
It was never called estrangement.

Saying estrangement never happened in previous generations is like saying that child abuse never happened then either. They did, they were just hushed up/not admitted to/supressed. I hate this generational divide, this assumption that everything used to be great, there is a harrowing thread on GN at the moment whish will disprove this fantasy that every parent used to be perfect, and are now left bewildered by the fact that their children have cut them off from their lives.

I’m sorry there’s a harrowing thread on GN at the moment, but I’m glad I haven’t seen it. I’ve got enough to deal with in my life right now.
I hope whoever is in that thread finds some peace.

theworriedwell

My granny was a wonderful wise woman. One of her pieces of wisdom was "you can't spoil a good child with love.". I always tried to remember that with mine and passed the message on to the next generation.

Spunds like "spoilt" dressed up in a different way, using different words.

Sorry if I have got the wrong end of the stick by that post.

Looking at another post on this tread, I possibly have got things wrong. Sorry again.

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying she's necessarily justified in no contact, simply that if she has no motivation to have you in her life and she deems it detrimental as opposed to bringing her and her children happiness then she will be no contact. I'm not saying anyone in this situation is right or wrong. With most situations there's normally one side of the argument, the other side and the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Many arguments are down to perception and not being able to see the other persons point of view as valid. What I'm simply saying is that if the motivation to have a relationship only comes from one side, there will be no relationship.

fancythat

theworriedwell

My granny was a wonderful wise woman. One of her pieces of wisdom was "you can't spoil a good child with love.". I always tried to remember that with mine and passed the message on to the next generation.

Spunds like "spoilt" dressed up in a different way, using different words.

Sorry if I have got the wrong end of the stick by that post.

I'm not sure what dressed up in a different way means. What she meant was if you do what you do for love it won't spoil a child. Loving things aren't always the easy thing, you can say buying your child a treat is spoiling them but you might feel they have earned a treat and the loving thing is to buy it for them, someone else could buy the same treat because they can't be bothered to argue with a demanding child, that isn't loving and it is spoiling.

I hope that helsp.

Oh yes, underscore - plenty of "disowning" I'd think!

NotSpaghetti

Oh yes, underscore - plenty of "disowning" I'd think!

Yes my grandfather was born in 1900, his family were strict Presbyterians in Northern Ireland. His brother went off to Canada to make his fortune and fell in love with an Irish Catholic girl, he wrote home to say he was bringing Bridget Kelly (can't remember her real name but something like that) to meet them before their wedding. His parents knew right away she was Catholic from her name and his father wrote back and advised him not to waste his money. They never heard from him again.

I honestly don't understand how a parent could do that, I can't think of anything my kids would do that would make me disown them. I might not like it, I might not forgive them but I'd always love them.

I think you are going down a rabbit hole there, especially in regards to your own troubled relationship. This standpoint will do you no good at all. You have no idea at all of others relationships or reasons for them breaking down. I remember when leaving a marriage were considered rather shameful, should we go back to the days of desperately unhappy marriages too? Things change, humanity grows and learns. Now we teach our children what abuse looks like and this saves them from all sorts of rather terrible relationships. Worth celebrating I feel.

Mamasperspective

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying she's necessarily justified in no contact, simply that if she has no motivation to have you in her life and she deems it detrimental as opposed to bringing her and her children happiness then she will be no contact. I'm not saying anyone in this situation is right or wrong. With most situations there's normally one side of the argument, the other side and the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Many arguments are down to perception and not being able to see the other persons point of view as valid. What I'm simply saying is that if the motivation to have a relationship only comes from one side, there will be no relationship.

Excellent point.

Bit like pushing in a noodle, futile.

I'm no longer sure what this thread is really about.
I thought it was about estrangement being new (which I don't think it is).

My generation, boomers, born from the 50's to 60's, we literally NEVER heard of estrangement.

I agree the word wasn't used.

Is this really about asking why adult children don't look in the mirror and see faults, Eugenia?
I think I'm a bit confused. Sorry if I've not got it.

theworriedwell

My granny was a wonderful wise woman. One of her pieces of wisdom was "you can't spoil a good child with love.". I always tried to remember that with mine and passed the message on to the next generation.

Omg. My daughter needs that quote, she always thinks when I do things for the grandson out of love means he is going to be spoiled. Nevermind what anyone else does, it's just me who's gonna spoil him according to her. Even though I sort of spoiled my kids, my son does seem to have a special conscience about things, but then again, he didn't go through what my daughter has. Goes to show, raise them right but life can change them into different people. Heck, I've even seen something as simple as peer pressure/acceptance change otherwise good kids. Parenting might just be half skill, half plain old luck. Guess I got unlucky. Well, your granny was definately a wonderful wise woman and I agree with her.

maddyone

My sister estranged our whole family for seven years. She had serious mental health issues. She only received treatment after she went out of her house with a knife to kill her mother in law. Thankfully she was intercepted by her husband. Although the long lasting treatment improved her condition, she has never truly recovered fully. Mind you, she had difficulties in her relationships long before that, going right back to her childhood. My mother grieved deeply during those years. Our mother was far from perfect but I loved her deeply and am still grieving her death which was two years ago. My sister was only interested in the money and actually accused me of being likely to withhold her share. As if I could, the estate was going through the solicitor, who intimidated that he understood that she was unreasonable. As a result I no longer have anything to do with my sister, although I had little to do with her before mum died due to her behaviour.

Omg. How horrible for your mom. The way she treated you too, after your moms death, really says volumes. That should have been a time to comfort each other, not to engage in baseless accusations. I'm sorry to hear that. It's understandable how you feel.

Underscore

I don't know if it was common, but estrangement definitely did happen in the boomers generation and before that. My mum who is currently in her 80s estranged her adult son (my brother) in the 1980s. She refused to have any contact with him, his wife, and his son for a few years. She also refused to allow me (I was still a child) to have contact with them, and as a result she didn't meet her first grandson until he was older. The estrangement was instigated by my mother and not my brother - he tried to contact her but she would hang up the phone and tear up the letters etc. Her reason for estranging him was that he got married and had a child against her wishes.

Yes, my point was it was uncommon, of course. So very sorry your mum did that and for what reason? That doesn't ring right with me...as much as I was attached to my 2 kids, when each got married I felt so much joy, not betrayal. Idk, mb I got lucky too, as both married people I did like a lot. Perhaps it's different if the person they marry isn't a person the parent thinks will be good for their kid...idk, I can't really imagine why getting married would make your mum so angry at your brother. Very sad either way.

Underscore

I also work with someone who is in her 60s who was estranged by her own father a few decades ago- although he referred to it as disowning her. He wrote her a letter to tell her that she was disowned and that he would no longer have any contact with her. His reason for estranging her was that he didn't like the man she married and wanted her to go to university.

Oooh, again, that's just so wrong. I never understood parents like that.

theworriedwell

Underscore your poor brother. Reminds me of telling my MIL her 2nd GC was on the way. She sort of pulled a face and made a growling sound and went in the kitchen and started smashing dishes. Of course her story was she was so worried about if we could cope and she couldn't see why her reaction had upset us.

Oh my really? Idk. Joy is all I felt both times my daughter was pregnant. I did think, if they could afford the second child, I think it's a natural fear, but, I didn't let that fear make me upset, as I knew it was only that, a thought that may or may not mean anything. And I read your other post about her coming too early; that's something I wouldn't really do, but anytime they were not ready when I did come, I felt best to offer to help instead. Well, I am sorry to hear you had MIL problems. Mine was kinda pushy too, but Idk, even though I'm an emotional person, somehow I think my mom managed to instill a bit of self worth in me, so many things just fell off my shoulder in my marriage and life. I wasn't the drama queen, Now I wonder, if I went too far with that attitude. Passive agreeable people sometimes are targets for being taken advantage of and abused. That shouldn't be a thing, in a decent world, but it is. And I was too naive to see it. That's the trouble sometimes with a good childhood, and being exposed to a good marriage without drama.....ironically. It doesn't prepare you for the other side of life.

HousePlantQueen

NotSpaghetti

I'm not sure I was very clear up above.
I think families/parents were estranged in my youth - but generally, neither side admitted to it. They weren't really getting letters or having family who were "very busy" - they were not going to discuss the real situation.
It was like anything painful... brushed under the carpet.
My mother's pain was for her brother actually. I loved him a lot and so did she but when his son returned maybe 30 years later after her brother doed she couldn't reconcile.
It was never called estrangement.

Saying estrangement never happened in previous generations is like saying that child abuse never happened then either. They did, they were just hushed up/not admitted to/supressed. I hate this generational divide, this assumption that everything used to be great, there is a harrowing thread on GN at the moment whish will disprove this fantasy that every parent used to be perfect, and are now left bewildered by the fact that their children have cut them off from their lives.

If I may, I did not say it never happened. I said we never heard about it, which to me means it was very, very uncommon. Now it's like you are at the popular girls table if you are estranged and it's all the rage. It is an opportunity to have everything be about themselves, with nobody else bothering them about that or calling out their selfishness. It's become an excuse for that self centeredness. I really think, even if one doesn't believe, the Bible sure nailed in that passage, I can't remember but it's about sons turning against fathers, daughters turning against mothers, etc. Well, if it's all true, end of days are around the corner I guess.

Mamasperspective

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying she's necessarily justified in no contact, simply that if she has no motivation to have you in her life and she deems it detrimental as opposed to bringing her and her children happiness then she will be no contact. I'm not saying anyone in this situation is right or wrong. With most situations there's normally one side of the argument, the other side and the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Many arguments are down to perception and not being able to see the other persons point of view as valid. What I'm simply saying is that if the motivation to have a relationship only comes from one side, there will be no relationship.

Heres the thing though. She doesn't get the right to decide for her kids if they want and love their grandparents...or uncles, aunts, whoever might be on the chopping block, because if she does that is also akin to child abuse and at the very least, not caring at all about her children. Now again, I do see them, we are not estranged "physically", but it's her abusive treatment to me is why I feel "emotionally estranged" That was the context of my original post, how much that can hurt as well. Hurt so much so that I cannot believe I'm actually glad she doesn't see me outside the kids visits anymore; I miss the days we would do things together but I feel like that was a different person, someone who treated me well and this person she is now I have no desire to be in her life anymore. Even that thought alone saddens me to no end....want my old daughter back. It's like she died. But this one.....almost hate her. I say almost because if she ever just walked up to me and said mom, I love you....that would be it. I don't need anyone bending the knee, begging for forgiveness. I don't need someone to do everything my way. Just plain love and respect, that' all.

I know what estrangement is. Not seen my daughter for over 10 years. Not spoken to her and it hurts. Estrangement is NOT in the minority. I know others going through similar. So pleased that my parents are not around to witness this disgusting behaviour. I would never have dreamt of treating my parents like this. I could be dead and she wouldn’t give a rats backside.

whywhywhy

I know what estrangement is. Not seen my daughter for over 10 years. Not spoken to her and it hurts. Estrangement is NOT in the minority. I know others going through similar. So pleased that my parents are not around to witness this disgusting behaviour. I would never have dreamt of treating my parents like this. I could be dead and she wouldn’t give a rats backside.

I am so sorry. No mother (unless abusive) deserves such an unjustified punishment.