I am just gonna get real about this whole estrangement thing...

NotSpaghetti

I think we never heard about it years ago is because when people moved they just "quietly" dropped contact. If asked how x was they said "oh very busy" or "we don't write often" or "we rarely hear from them" etc. It was years before I understood that this had happened to people in my own family.

It didn't impact me at all as a child but it deeply troubled my mother.

I agree that it absolutely happened you just didn’t hear of it in the same way. People “just moved away”. “Too busy to contact much” etc often enough and some of the time - the reason was 100% estrangement. “Oh they took a job in Australia , and we never hear from them much “ When maybe the reason they did was because they wanted out of the familial ties around their neck. Estrangement has happened over every generation tbey just spoke about it differently . Now it’s more common to hear about bluntly put as estrangement and honestly that’s not all bad. It gives people space to find like minded people for support (like these posts ) and in reality - sometimes estrangement is the right course of action and it being more commonly spoken of may empower those who are in toxic abusive situations to stir the pot and estrange themselves , instead of remaining miserable and feeling they “owe” someone their time and experience simply due to a blood relation.

Eugenia, This is exactly the same as your other post running. You need help which those on here cannot give and you wouldn't listen to anyway. I feel you like the drama of it all.
Any newcomer reading these would be out off.

I disagree on the point of estrangement being akin to child abuse. Again, not in all cases but, unless a grandparent has a close bond for a considerable amount of their grandchild's life, it's unlikely to massively impact the child. For example, if the grandparent/grandchild contact was stopped before the child reached the age of 4 - children do not have autobiographical memory before that age so would not remember the grandparent and it's unlikely to have a significant impact if they have other loving family members around them. The benefit to the relationship would be for the estranged grandparent but I appreciate this is different in your scenario. Would your daughter be open to going to a therapist WITH you so that there is a neutral party to help with building bridges and that bond again? She obviously doesn't feel there's any fault on her side and you don't feel there is any fault on yours so it may be a good idea if you're both open to it? Obviously the current situation and visiting (from her side) seems out of obligation so it's a shame if you're not both enjoying the visits. Just a suggestion.

I suspect the difference is that being disowned by parents was far more common than AC choosing to estrange in previous generations. And it was something to hide before.

I know of teens who were disowned by Boomer parents (and Boomers disowned as teens too) for getting pregnant out of wedlock, falling in love with someone of the wrong colour, class or religion, and of course, being gay. For going to college, for not going, for going to the wrong college or not studying the approved thing. For not wanting to continue the family business.

It’s not that it didn’t happen. It’s that nobody admitted to it. And the cases I can think of, it was the parents who did the disowning, not the kids.

It’s not the estrangement that’s new, it’s people talking about it that’s changed.

@MercuryQueen yes I think this is very accurate, plus now there is the internet so access to information is at the touch of a button and communication with others is instant. Estrangement isn't a new 'trend' it's just more widely acknowledged now because (ironically) people have more access to connection with others due to modern technology. I think there is also conflict because, previously, parenting strategies and methods were passed down from generation to generation. Now you can read child psychology studies, safety standards etc at the push of a button so new mothers are educating themselves. That's not to say some old parenting strategies don't apply but some are deemed archaic and unsafe now. That combined with things like lack of services such as NHS dentistry and rising private dental costs means the 'occasional treats' that SOME grandparents just HAVE to give their grandkids is an issue for parents and puts more pressure on. Overall, just better communication (and respect for parenting decisions) would alleviate many (not all) of these estrangement cases.

When I worked I frequently had to deal with people who were experiencing difficulties in their relationships.

The majority found some kind of compromise and resolution but there was a minority who resisted all efforts to make a change.

I came to the conclusion that they were either determined to have exactly what they wanted regardless of others or that they actually enjoyed the drama and the attention.

Now I am retired, I don’t have to engage with people like that anymore and I can just walk away instead of being involved in their drama.Life is so much pleasanter.

I haven’t estranged them. I’m just living my life without the stress they create.

Real estrangement is a very different thing.

I have come to this conclusion with estrangement. In its simplest for, which it is anything but! a difference in thought, deed and perception. A person's thought, deed and perception can and does change through life. Could be altered through stress, unhappiness, mixing with people with a different mindset to that person. Some people are hard if not impossible to manipulate and coheres, some people are very easy to manipulate. Circumstances allow others to manipulate and coheres. When estrangement occurs in a relationship, you can only hope their perception or manipulation ends ant they see things clearly for themselves. I not referring to people who have been abused. I am referring to people who have 'fallen out', to use a simple term.

Mamasperspective

@MercuryQueen yes I think this is very accurate, plus now there is the internet so access to information is at the touch of a button and communication with others is instant. Estrangement isn't a new 'trend' it's just more widely acknowledged now because (ironically) people have more access to connection with others due to modern technology. I think there is also conflict because, previously, parenting strategies and methods were passed down from generation to generation. Now you can read child psychology studies, safety standards etc at the push of a button so new mothers are educating themselves. That's not to say some old parenting strategies don't apply but some are deemed archaic and unsafe now. That combined with things like lack of services such as NHS dentistry and rising private dental costs means the 'occasional treats' that SOME grandparents just HAVE to give their grandkids is an issue for parents and puts more pressure on. Overall, just better communication (and respect for parenting decisions) would alleviate many (not all) of these estrangement cases.

Yes, the inter-net and particularly social media has played an influential part in this.

I first came to this site because of a family issue I felt compelled to consider as estrangement, when it really wasn't. It was just a breakdown in communication.

I left the site pretty quickly because I felt judged by people who had only a few lines to go on. I didn't want analysis and couldn't reveal personal info so it is hard to take advice from people who don't know the truth of your situation, but think they do.

Once I realised I had little support here I fell back on my family and friends and my own wits and somehow came out the other side. I have had to compromise and search parts of myself I didn't want to see but I got through it.

We love our labels because it makes life so much easier and less complex to stick a word on someone and let that define them forever. Humans are far, far more complex than that but looking inward and facing up to our own weaknesses is just too much hard work. Better to label it.

I am reading the word 'spoilt' here a lot now. This is more labelling, but what does it actually mean? Spoiling is an active verb. We all spoil things, but maybe we spoil ourselves most of all.

The other word emerging now is 'resilience.' We all have a certain amount of resilience if really challenged, it is just easier sometimes to feel we are entitled to more than we really are. There I go again with the word 'entitled.'

This is why I don't comment much on these threads anymore. No one really wants to take advice here- they want 'validation' for their feelings and behaviour and I just can't see things in such a shallow and pretty obvious (to me at least) way anymore.

People can either move on or stay in the same place. No amount of advice from strangers should influence your life to such an extent.

Get the power back Grannies! It is yours if you will only start to see it.

whywhywhy

I know what estrangement is. Not seen my daughter for over 10 years. Not spoken to her and it hurts. Estrangement is NOT in the minority. I know others going through similar. So pleased that my parents are not around to witness this disgusting behaviour. I would never have dreamt of treating my parents like this. I could be dead and she wouldn’t give a rats backside.

You really think the majority of families are estranged? From what I see at school pick up the majority of families seem to have gran doing pick up so they can't be estranged.

Mamasperspective

I disagree on the point of estrangement being akin to child abuse. Again, not in all cases but, unless a grandparent has a close bond for a considerable amount of their grandchild's life, it's unlikely to massively impact the child. For example, if the grandparent/grandchild contact was stopped before the child reached the age of 4 - children do not have autobiographical memory before that age so would not remember the grandparent and it's unlikely to have a significant impact if they have other loving family members around them. The benefit to the relationship would be for the estranged grandparent but I appreciate this is different in your scenario. Would your daughter be open to going to a therapist WITH you so that there is a neutral party to help with building bridges and that bond again? She obviously doesn't feel there's any fault on her side and you don't feel there is any fault on yours so it may be a good idea if you're both open to it? Obviously the current situation and visiting (from her side) seems out of obligation so it's a shame if you're not both enjoying the visits. Just a suggestion.

Great suggestion. I did ask, and she said no. I'm the one to blame for everything so I should go....great attitude, right? Well, I do enjoy the visits, only because of my grandkids though. But as far as them, grandson is going to be 8 in a few months and granddaughter 5. They both get excited when we visit, they come to the house; always asking for a sleepover, always asking if we can come to do things with them. I would say we are pretty bonded and have done many, many things with them. It would be abusive to end that relationship. And, they are the whole reason I continue, with a smile on my face despite the pain and anger.

As a boomer, I estranged my ex MIL well over 45 years ago. I told her the reasons why, and never looked back.

But, I didn’t really talk about it, I didn’t call it anything, I didn’t give it head space, and I just got on with life, bringing my kids up.🤷‍♀️

No dramas, no counsellors, and no internet - so fairly simple.

It was done. 🙂

If you visit, you’re not estranged.

You just mean you don’t visit as much as you want.

So really your anger is about not getting what you want.

I would call that a tantrum.

The idea that simply ending a relationship could be abusive is so so toxic and controlling.

Lathyrus3

If you visit, you’re not estranged.

You just mean you don’t visit as much as you want.

So really your anger is about not getting what you want.

I would call that a tantrum.

That’s a bit unfair, as there are obvious problems 🤷‍♀️

Has anyone suggested that simply ending a relationship could be abusive User?

An interesting OP Eugenia . Certainly nowadays estrangement isn't as you say when someone moves away and contact fizzels out, it's a definitive decision to bring a relationship to an end.

Once enacted, the one whose been estranged has no recourse as any attempt at contact is often regarded as controlling and abusive. Only if the one whose decision to estrange has any desire to resume any form of contact, can there be a possibility of reconciliation.

It's been mentioned on this thread about the increase in mental health issues for the younger generation, and how this could be linked to particular parenting styles.

Spoiling children, giving into all their demands doesn't prepare them for a life as an adult. Disappointment lies ahead when every whim can't or wont be accommodated and sometimes when it's the parents who are deemed to be 'lacking', they are
disposed of estranged.

As you say loveOc there are many influences that can change their outlook and perceptions, including their perception of their childhood and as a consequence, their perception of their parents.

Some are easily manipulated and coerced so influenced by others. Some are trying to deal with stress and/or anxiety that although has no basis in their childhood and their relationship with their parents, can be easier to accept if rather than taking personal responsibility for how things are, others can be blamed.

I don't know if estrangement is no longer in the minority whywhywhy but it does appear to be on the increase. Does it appear to be because it's being discussed more openly, or is it being discussed more openly because it is on the increase .

Seeing the majority of pickups at school by GP's doesn't mean that estrangement isn't affecting the majority of families theworriedwell. You don't know if the other GP's, the ones not at the school gates at the end of the day aren't there because they're estranged.

I wonder if if didn't have a name 45 years ago DL because although of course it wasn't unheard of, it wasn't as common as it is today.

I agree DL it is unfair to refer to Eugenia's situation as her having a tantrum, there's a lot more to it.

Smileless2012

Has anyone suggested that simply ending a relationship could be abusive User?

An interesting OP Eugenia . Certainly nowadays estrangement isn't as you say when someone moves away and contact fizzels out, it's a definitive decision to bring a relationship to an end.

Once enacted, the one whose been estranged has no recourse as any attempt at contact is often regarded as controlling and abusive. Only if the one whose decision to estrange has any desire to resume any form of contact, can there be a possibility of reconciliation.

It's been mentioned on this thread about the increase in mental health issues for the younger generation, and how this could be linked to particular parenting styles.

Spoiling children, giving into all their demands doesn't prepare them for a life as an adult. Disappointment lies ahead when every whim can't or wont be accommodated and sometimes when it's the parents who are deemed to be 'lacking', they are
disposed of estranged.

As you say loveOc there are many influences that can change their outlook and perceptions, including their perception of their childhood and as a consequence, their perception of their parents.

Some are easily manipulated and coerced so influenced by others. Some are trying to deal with stress and/or anxiety that although has no basis in their childhood and their relationship with their parents, can be easier to accept if rather than taking personal responsibility for how things are, others can be blamed.

I don't know if estrangement is no longer in the minority whywhywhy but it does appear to be on the increase. Does it appear to be because it's being discussed more openly, or is it being discussed more openly because it is on the increase .

Seeing the majority of pickups at school by GP's doesn't mean that estrangement isn't affecting the majority of families theworriedwell. You don't know if the other GP's, the ones not at the school gates at the end of the day aren't there because they're estranged.

I wonder if if didn't have a name 45 years ago DL because although of course it wasn't unheard of, it wasn't as common as it is today.

Yes but choosing to move away and let a relationship fizzle out was a definitive choice too - it was oftnen estwngement by another name. Estrangement isn’t new at all. Todays generation is simply more apt to call it that, more confident in their choice 1 perhaps because it’s talked about more , so instead of making excuses “too busy “
“Too far away”. And hoping it fizzled out entirely they simply say “stop contacting me I don’t wish to have a relationship”. Or just stop responding at all - less pressure to give excuses and keep up appearances. Ending a relationship with anyone isn’t abusive - unpleasant and unwanted perhaps but. Or abusive.

Wouldn't it be a rather strange society that forced everyone to have a relationship with people simply because that is what the other person wanted?

Smileless2012

Has anyone suggested that simply ending a relationship could be abusive User?

An interesting OP Eugenia . Certainly nowadays estrangement isn't as you say when someone moves away and contact fizzels out, it's a definitive decision to bring a relationship to an end.

Once enacted, the one whose been estranged has no recourse as any attempt at contact is often regarded as controlling and abusive. Only if the one whose decision to estrange has any desire to resume any form of contact, can there be a possibility of reconciliation.

It's been mentioned on this thread about the increase in mental health issues for the younger generation, and how this could be linked to particular parenting styles.

Spoiling children, giving into all their demands doesn't prepare them for a life as an adult. Disappointment lies ahead when every whim can't or wont be accommodated and sometimes when it's the parents who are deemed to be 'lacking', they are
disposed of estranged.

As you say loveOc there are many influences that can change their outlook and perceptions, including their perception of their childhood and as a consequence, their perception of their parents.

Some are easily manipulated and coerced so influenced by others. Some are trying to deal with stress and/or anxiety that although has no basis in their childhood and their relationship with their parents, can be easier to accept if rather than taking personal responsibility for how things are, others can be blamed.

I don't know if estrangement is no longer in the minority whywhywhy but it does appear to be on the increase. Does it appear to be because it's being discussed more openly, or is it being discussed more openly because it is on the increase .

Seeing the majority of pickups at school by GP's doesn't mean that estrangement isn't affecting the majority of families theworriedwell. You don't know if the other GP's, the ones not at the school gates at the end of the day aren't there because they're estranged.

I wonder if if didn't have a name 45 years ago DL because although of course it wasn't unheard of, it wasn't as common as it is today.

No, but, years ago, if contact drifted, it was fairly unusual, but there was no social media to feed all the “victim status”.

I wasn’t a victim. I did what I did. No need for dramas.🤷‍♀️

Nowadays, there’s always dramas - healing, happy podcasts etc when little seems to be happening that way. 🙄

But, of course, today, mental health issues are (officially) rocketing with young children, so I wonder how life will pan out for ACs that think they’ve got it all so right. 🤷‍♀️.

How will they feel when they get all the blame? 🤔

But she isn’t estranged. Yes there are very obvious problems but she is still in contact with her daughter and seeing her grandchildren. Albeit not as often or in the way she wants. And she’s very, very angry when her daughter won’t do as she wants.

I think most people who have been truly estranged and whose loved ones are totally lost to them would give their eye teeth for the contact she has.

I’ll retract the word tantrum. Though it doesn’t change the rage and bitterness she has expressed in not getting exactly what she wants.

She says her grandson is eight. Soon he won’t be that bothered about getting together with Granny. Eight is the developmental age when peers become more important for socialising than family. Is she going to explode with rage at him then because he’s not giving her what she wants?

Oh dear, that's rather lacking in understanding or empathy

I don’t lack understanding or empathy but mine is mostly with the daughter who has not estranged her mother in spite of all the difficulties of the relationship.

How will they feel when they get all the blame? It may cause them to re evaluate their own decision to estrange if that's the decision they took DL.

It may be too late to do anything about it of course, because the one(s) estranged have died or because it's been so long that there's no desire to think about reconciliation.

In fact I rather think that those who are supporting Eugenias tirades are to the same extent lacking in empathy and understanding for the daughter.

Eugenia hasn't said she is estranged Lathryus in fact she states at the very beginning of her OP that she isn't.