Over The Pond

It's horses for courses BlessedArt and TBH I don't know why it matters whether or not you'd find what you describe as support.

Psycho babble pods, sites, links, counselling papers etc as referred too by DL aren't my idea of support but if someone does find them helpful, good luck to them.

NiceDreams In what way?

The behaviours can manifest in very nuanced and "un-obvious ways" and sometimes it is only a build up of those different things that enables an understanding of what is going on. Especially when interspersed with "love- bombing", a fairly common behaviour as well in this context. By which time in the case of coercive control the abused person may be unable to see beyond their own battered down sense of self etc. I hope that explains what I meant within the context of the nuancces of recognising abusive behaviour for what it is in people with public and private faces

Yes it does, thank you Madgran77. So many comments here seem to have a double meaning it is easy to get confused catching up.

Here is something I would like to explain about myself as a person who estranged a parent. It has to do with apology. There are 3 types of scenarios that go with causing problems or pain.

Apologetic, they are sorry they hurt you and try to make amends

Unapologetic, because it was something that needed to be said or righted a wrong or fought for a freedom or right

Defiant, refusing to apologise when they should, refusing to acknowledge they caused pain, refusing to change that behaviour or make amends, justifying that behaviour, blaming you for that behaviour

When I estranged, I knew it would cause problems and potentially cause pain. I couldn't afford to be sorry for that because being sorry means making amends which was not possible in my situation. So I am unapologetic, I had my reasons, I don't mind discussing them or talking about why I would estrange. I realise that sometimes I might meet people who might see themselves in what I describe and I would have to be unapologetic about that too because, it's the simple truth, those were things that weren't healthy and I wouldn't be saying them to cause pain by describing the pain it caused me. Abuse is abuse, it looks like abuse, it feels like abuse and no one should ever be sorry about that because abuse has no place in families or anywhere else.

Smileless2012

Two excellent posts Starfire .

I think one reason why parents are so often deemed responsible for being estranged is because if it can happen to parents who aren't to blame, it can happen to anyone which of course it can.

It isn't as you say just because of their childhood, there are many influences that are out of parental control; peer pressure and the adult relationships they enter into for example.

My experience of sharing with other EP's Peace is that the overwhelming majority do love their EAC unconditionally. Unconditional love is loving in spite of what the person has said or done.

You can dislike the behaviour of your EAC and dislike the person they've become but your love for them never dies. A poster on this forum recently described the love they have for their EAC as muted which I think is an excellent description.

Thank you. Also good points.

I think what the real problem is, is society has turned what we used to call "set in their ways" into toxic. To repeat the obvious, this is not abuse we are talking about. It's the petty annoyances. Instead of just going with the flow, trying to communicate when certain things are upsetting, hoping for a change, and accepting that change, it seems a certain generation does not want to do any of that.

They want to sit back while the parents do all the work, and if the parents somehow succeed, well, that won't do sometimes. I myself have watched the "goal posts" be moved up and down the field. Those posts seem to be firmily in place for everyone else but me.

I have witnessed the sheer opposite of what my child has told me wants as far as rules, parenting being done by other people; like other family and friends, and I literally can't believe they can do this with no repremand.

It's proposterous. And I wonder how many other parents can't make a touchdown because the goal post gets further and further away until the running has to stop.

Llort138562

Recently, I spent time reading forums and online spaces created by adult children who have chosen to estrange themselves from one or both parents. These communities are significantly different from estranged parent support groups, both in tone and in the way stories are told.

One of the most striking things is how often these adult children describe their estrangement as the result of longstanding emotional pain. Many reference experiences they interpret as emotional neglect, control, boundary violations, or outright abuse—ranging from overt behavior to more subtle, persistent patterns. Some speak of childhood environments that looked normal from the outside but felt unsafe or invalidating internally.

There are recurring themes in how these individuals describe their parents’ responses when they tried to address past issues:
- Denial or downplaying of events
- Shifting blame onto the child, a spouse, or a therapist
- Pathologizing the child (e.g., calling them mentally ill, brainwashed, unstable)
- Viewing estrangement as a sudden or irrational decision rather than the outcome of a long process
- Expressing shock that a child could “cut off” a parent, while overlooking the years of attempts at communication that may have preceded it

Interestingly, these are many of the same patterns discussed in estranged parent forums—but from the opposite perspective. Where parents often speak of being blindsided or betrayed, the adult children describe a breaking point after years of unresolved hurt.

There’s clearly a major disconnect in how both sides interpret the same relationships and events. But reading these spaces side by side highlights how entrenched and mirrored the narratives can be.

This isn’t a comment on who’s right or wrong in any individual case, but more an observation: both groups describe the other in remarkably similar terms. Yet the framing is completely different depending on whose story you’re hearing.

It raises complex questions about memory, emotional perception, intergenerational dynamics, and the nature of family itself. It also shows how easily communication can break down when pain isn’t acknowledged or addressed directly, or when one party insists on their version being the only valid one.

Whether one agrees with the estranged adult children's interpretations or not, their accounts are nuanced and often come from a place of deep reflection. They’re worth reading for anyone trying to understand the broader landscape of estrangement.

Methinks you doth protest too much. Trying way too hard to prove it isn't your fault. For those who accuse are the most guilty.

Starfire57 I read you say your relationship isn't estranged yet and your daughter is in therapy. Maybe she just needs time to process that and get through it. Therapy can be a place where everything comes out, big or small and while all that pain is coming out at once, it is all the same pain. Over time it will be placed where it belongs, separated into compartments and dealt with as it was.

I know this because I have been there and went to therapy in a great deal of pain. Unfortunately in my case it was my upbringing that had caused the most pain and it was abuse but I wasn't really aware of that when I started therapy.

But for you, you said your daughter went through some trauma unrelated to you and therapists do tend to look to childhood to start at the beginning because that is where their patient started.

Maybe if you can be supportive and understanding, listen to what your daughter is saying, it will help her to resolve those compartments faster so that she has more time in therapy to find the issues.

I understand that might be painful for you to find her childhood and therefore your parenting examined like this but the real issue is that your daughter is struggling enough to need therapy and there is simply a process to that she needs to go through.

I think the outcome could be that you both have a healthier relationship at the end but you have to be willing to have all those boxes opened and smaller issues dealt with before the bigger picture is apparent and healed.

Aaaah yes, those moving goal posts Lathyrus. Impossible to keep up with the 'rules' that can change on a daily basis.

'Don't keep popping in'; I never did
'Why don't you pop round more often?' .

oops apologies Starfire that post was in response to yours.

Smileless2012

oops apologies Starfire that post was in response to yours.

Oops haaha Smileless2012, I think these posts can get tangled up upon each other. No worries.

NiceDream

Starfire57 I read you say your relationship isn't estranged yet and your daughter is in therapy. Maybe she just needs time to process that and get through it. Therapy can be a place where everything comes out, big or small and while all that pain is coming out at once, it is all the same pain. Over time it will be placed where it belongs, separated into compartments and dealt with as it was.

I know this because I have been there and went to therapy in a great deal of pain. Unfortunately in my case it was my upbringing that had caused the most pain and it was abuse but I wasn't really aware of that when I started therapy.

But for you, you said your daughter went through some trauma unrelated to you and therapists do tend to look to childhood to start at the beginning because that is where their patient started.

Maybe if you can be supportive and understanding, listen to what your daughter is saying, it will help her to resolve those compartments faster so that she has more time in therapy to find the issues.

I understand that might be painful for you to find her childhood and therefore your parenting examined like this but the real issue is that your daughter is struggling enough to need therapy and there is simply a process to that she needs to go through.

I think the outcome could be that you both have a healthier relationship at the end but you have to be willing to have all those boxes opened and smaller issues dealt with before the bigger picture is apparent and healed.

I want to say, I truly appreciate your advice, and it's very well thought out. I had hoped she would end up doing what you said and sort it out. She isn't in therapy anymore, but she has a friend who I've found out influences her tremendiously and does not like me.

I can't fathom why, other than through the years before anything happened, she saw how close my daughter and I were. She and her mother were not. I chalk it up to jealously. Come to find out, she was jealous of her siblings too and seems also, she projected that onto my daughter.

My daughter and my other adult child seem to be ok with each other, but she claims I gave the other more attention, which is far from the truth, but memories can be tricky in childhood. I remember different types of attention to each, but she did get most of my time.

I think the whole processs of the event, plus the therapy and the friend, just hardened my daughter to me.

She used to be a great daughter and I adored her. But now she isn't the same.

She's a horrible, uncaring distant person now and unfortunately, I think it's permanent.

I really think part of her heart was destroyed. I also think, when someone goes through something so rejecting and humiliating, it's an instinct to reject your past self and everything attached to that, really. And it makes sense, I am the one intimantly attached to her past life, giving birth and raising her I think qualifies to being the closest thing to her existance back then.

She has done that rejection with me, and I have seen a partial rejection of other family members, but just not as severe....plus, a lot of them have their own lives so they don't notice like I do. But they do care and are family, I've been able to hide a lot of her attitude from them because they might get offended..

I confided in my brother. Boy, did he have some words about her......he sounded just like my departed mom for a moment there, so supportive and just so incredibly angry at the treatment I've gotten.

But I have grandkids so he understood I wouldn't just walk away, as he suggested.

I had hope for awhile, pressed on trying to take interest in her new life, being there, try to reassure her with her raising of her kids, supportive of a new boyfriend despite the fact he could care less who her family is.

She had other boyfriends who really liked us and it seemed the kiss of death for them. I kinda knew it too, when I realized she was getting more distant with me.

I would try to take her places, treat her, but as time went on, one excuse after another. I would do her dishes when visiting, ask what I could do to help ,when all I was really there for were grandkids. But I would dig in to anything she needed.

She started rejecting that help, for example, would critisize how I washed dishes (ONE time, a little something was stuck on a dish I didn't notice)

I've given up the hope I once had.

Now she cut visits, limiting them to just my house on a Saturday, I can't go over to hers anymore except maybe once in awhile she said. I even asked, perhaps just 2 times a month, or once, and she said no. Well, summer's here and I don't see what hectic schedules there are, so I'm goiing to start asking.

I actually only went for a few hours once a week there and would bring dinner. Now it's too much of a hassle as she put it, kids don't focus on that days' chores. They get off schedule. Suddenly, after 8 years?

Lies. That's all she spouted. The kids would do chores while I sat on my phone, then I would get about an hour of play with them, then order dinner and be out before book time. They never got off schedule as she claimed. I made sure to leave in plenty of time.

In the past, I'd be able to come early and stay for books, sometimes she'd have me read. I loved doing that, but slowly that also got cut out, before eventually cutting out the entire visit.

I really think the jealous friend told her I shouldn't be included in such things, even just once a week.

Because otherwise, why did she just start cutting out everything, especially when I knew we were ok, that I was doing things she wanted. Idk, no other explanation.

This has left me bitter. I love the grandkids and she's slowly pushed me out, but like I said, not entirely, not yet anyway.

I worry she will. I give her no excuses, do her rules no matter how petty. But she gave no real reason that made sense for cutting out the weekday visit. I hadn't done anything wrong according to her.

That just tore it. I tried so hard. So I think, in my heart, I'm done with her. Because clearly, in her heart, she's done with me.

If not for other family, my husband and other adult child, I'm pretty sure she'd go all out estrangement.

That hurts, after all the care and love she got since she was born.

It actually feels like she died to me. Because she's definately not the girl I raised and knew all the way up to a few years ago.

I'm hurt, but anger is really starting to take over. Well, I guess that's a survival instinct, isn't it? Best not to cry all the time.

Again, I really appreciate your perspective, but frankly, I've given up.

Starfire57 I'm so sorry to hear that. I didn't realise she had moved past that point. I understand being angry, I think that is stage for anyone in this situation because I went through it too. It will pass I promise. Maybe just try and enjoy those times you see her and the grandchildren for visits. We can be here for when you are angry so that you can let it out safely.

it does look as if there's a degree of coercive control over your D by her friend Starfire.

Don't worry about the anger, it's a perfectly normal reaction coming after the initial heart ache and pain. Anger isn't necessarily a negative emotion. It can strengthen your resolve not to give up on yourself and your life and help strengthen your determination that you're not going to allow someone to ruin what you still have .

NiceDream

Starfire57 I'm so sorry to hear that. I didn't realise she had moved past that point. I understand being angry, I think that is stage for anyone in this situation because I went through it too. It will pass I promise. Maybe just try and enjoy those times you see her and the grandchildren for visits. We can be here for when you are angry so that you can let it out safely.

You are quite kind and I appreciate it. It's hard on me not just because of losing her, but because there does seem to be a grandparent alienation going on, she's also said some things to grandkids I don't appreciate.

But I will not let it get to me, lately I am defending/speaking up myself in a confident way. I was advised to do that by a therapist I saw for awhile to figure out how to at least handle the situation better, even if it couldn't be changed.

I am sorry for your situation, as you seem like a empathetic and understanding person who no doubt did not deserve any ill treatment.

I thank you so much, yes, I will try to enjoy what I have still, continue to find ways to improve it.

Smileless2012

it does look as if there's a degree of coercive control over your D by her friend Starfire.

Don't worry about the anger, it's a perfectly normal reaction coming after the initial heart ache and pain. Anger isn't necessarily a negative emotion. It can strengthen your resolve not to give up on yourself and your life and help strengthen your determination that you're not going to allow someone to ruin what you still have .

Thank you so much. I appreciate your caring and you are right.

Yes, the friend....I've unfriended her myself on Facebook. I saw that anytime I posted something wonderful I got to enjoy with the grandkids, that something would, by my daughter, either be met with more discourgement or even downright end it.

For example, the last time I was allowed to participate in the grandkids stories once a week I made the mistake to post about how happy and grateful I was for it. It was no doubt seen by the friend and now, that priviledge has ended. I miss it.

Now I know, could be coiencidence, but there has been too many of these coiencidences for me.

So now I don't post, at all.....I keep my pictures to myself now, however, I leave room to post in the future on Facebook, since I unfriended the friend.

I did it when my daughter said repeated something distastful to me that I had inadvertantly heard from her friend, using words/phrases almost exactly word for word. She had to be the source. I just finally had enough, and I hope by quietly unfriending her, she got the message while the incident was fresh between my daughter and I.

The friend, I think, may have noticed. Other posts with tags of me got a thumbs up from her, which was highly unusual, as she never really paid attention to my posts or things I was tagged in.

Of course now, she can't see much anymore.

Yes, the anger. I know. It's not good. But it cuts through tears so right now, I welcome it. I just can't let it control me because I will need a calmer cool head to defeat a lot of what is going on.

If I had only known all this before, I could have avoided at least some of it. I never would have dreamed this, not at all really.

I think there can be many more factors in Estrangement rather than just the A vs B version.

My simple list and forgive me I’m not an expert;

Can’t be bothered to
Money
Resources
New partner or partner after a while
Partner wanting to husband the couples resources including via jealousy meaning time, energy, COL, possessive of children etc.
Lack of understanding how the grandchild - grandparent relationship can be a rich one.
Lack of emotional resilience and therefore maybe not the patience to build or cope with intergenerational relationships and talk things through.
Coming from a wider family where estrangement is common.
Lack of love and respect on either side. Or even both.

But hey I know nothing and I have no answers.

Have a peaceful week GNetters.

SparklyGrandma

I think there can be many more factors in Estrangement rather than just the A vs B version.

My simple list and forgive me I’m not an expert;

Can’t be bothered to
Money
Resources
New partner or partner after a while
Partner wanting to husband the couples resources including via jealousy meaning time, energy, COL, possessive of children etc.
Lack of understanding how the grandchild - grandparent relationship can be a rich one.
Lack of emotional resilience and therefore maybe not the patience to build or cope with intergenerational relationships and talk things through.
Coming from a wider family where estrangement is common.
Lack of love and respect on either side. Or even both.

But hey I know nothing and I have no answers.

Have a peaceful week GNetters.

I think some of the list definately applies to my case, among other things of course.

And I suspect many more people here might recognize some of the things on that list.

It is an excellent list.

Sparkly, nice to see a sensible post, leave it to others who want to spout almost a book of their interpretations.

Allsorts

Sparkly, nice to see a sensible post, leave it to others who want to spout almost a book of their interpretations.

That is my conclusion as well Allsorts. Best to leave them to it.

Yup. To each his/her own.

I think I would fall under lack of love from my mother. This showed in lots of ways.

Jealousy
Neglect of basic needs
Speaking badly about me
Eroding my confidence
Deliberate cruelty
Favouritism between grandchildren
Favouritism with siblings

And she never once validated my feelings if I protested about any of those things and would lie to others to cover it up.

It took me so long to find the strength to walk away and of course I took my children with me because I couldn't let them be around an abusive person.

I think she knows full well too what she did but probably doesn't know why. She has built a while house of cards around appearances and looking like a good person with a crazy daughter. If anyone threatens a breeze against them, they become the enemy and she stops talking to them.

NiceDream

I think I would fall under lack of love from my mother. This showed in lots of ways.

Jealousy
Neglect of basic needs
Speaking badly about me
Eroding my confidence
Deliberate cruelty
Favouritism between grandchildren
Favouritism with siblings

And she never once validated my feelings if I protested about any of those things and would lie to others to cover it up.

It took me so long to find the strength to walk away and of course I took my children with me because I couldn't let them be around an abusive person.

I think she knows full well too what she did but probably doesn't know why. She has built a while house of cards around appearances and looking like a good person with a crazy daughter. If anyone threatens a breeze against them, they become the enemy and she stops talking to them.

Well, I’m sorry it was so rough for you, truly. Everyone’s experiences and perceptions are valid, but sometimes I honestly really do wonder where some children get the audacity to say such harsh, one-sided things. Especially about their own mother.

There is no such thing as a perfect parent. Mistakes will always happen. But painting someone as entirely cruel or abusive, without mentioning their intentions, struggles, or context feels incredibly unfair and narrow-minded.

It’s easy to judge once you're grown and start rewriting the past through the lens of blame. But rarely are the parents struggles considered. No one wants to think that maybe the so-called “abuse” was just discipline, or that “favoritism” is a perception, not fact.

Just as we must fight against anger controlling us Starfire, we also need to fight against being controlled by our pain and despair as that can be just as damaging to ourselves and our families.

There do appear to be too many coincidences regarding your D's friend and the problem with coercive control is that we're not aware of what's happening in a loved one's life, until it's been going on for sometime.

Talk to us here when if things are getting too much as getting it out of your system with us, will help you keep that cool and calm head .

You know plenty Sparkly which your comprehensive list and the contributions you make to this forum demonstrate . We learn from one another; we see how others have had our experiences and the different experiences of others, so we know that 'one size doesn't fit all' and that sweeping generalisations are pointless.

rewriting the past through the lens of blame a great summary of what can happen Gina.

It took until I became a parent myself to really see the difference between a loving parent and an abusive one. Of course we do get things wrong as parents but some parents get things wrong on purpose and they don't ever take a moment to feel bad about that sadly.