How do I help my sister to stop feeling like a victim?

I don’t think the debate of labels matters much to the OP. She is at peace with her decision and she is at peace with her sister choosing not to speak to her. When inner peace is achieved the conflict is essentially resolved for the OP.

PoppySeedBread

*Quoting InRainbows from a different thread so as not to derail it*

^ refuse to pick a side but I feel at peace if that decision is taken from me because I do know I have done things right from all the support here.^

I think it's unfortunate that you don't have a strong enough sense between right and wrong to take think for yourself, and that you opted to take the path of least resistance. It's honestly a shame because this world sorely needs more justice and empathy in it.

I realize on the surface level its easy to think the niece is in the wrong. She did something taboo, estranging her mother, and now your sister is in unimaginable pain.

But your sister committed the taboo of not making her child feel loved. Its just much less obvious because it happened so long ago behind closed doors and is more subtle than sudden estrangement.

Obviously I don't know you or your niece or what your relationship and history is like, and I can't ask you to care more about her, but I just want to say it's never too late to be there for someone who had a rough time.

In situations where there is a victim and offender, fence-sitting by taking no sides is always supporting the offender by default.

As someone with a lot of empathy due to my own difficult past, I would be asking why the niece felt the need to cut contact with her own mom.

*It really seems like if your sister just behaved less unreasonably than you would be on her side and maybe even ask your niece to reconsider her decision. As though your sister's wants are more important to you than your niece's needs.*

She is going to be there for both her sister and her niece if they want her to be. She has set boundaries to her sister quite clearly that she will not cut off her niece just because her sister wants her to! And lots of what the OP says clearly suggests that she will not validate her sisters "complaints" even whilst being there to listen. Having set a boundary she is in a betrer position to challenge her sister on her complaints if she feels the time is right.

And fence sitting is definitely NOT "always supporting the offender" by default. Not that the OP is "fence sitting" just because she still sees both her sister and her niece.

PoppySeedBread

*Quoting InRainbows from a different thread so as not to derail it*

^ refuse to pick a side but I feel at peace if that decision is taken from me because I do know I have done things right from all the support here.^

I think it's unfortunate that you don't have a strong enough sense between right and wrong to take think for yourself, and that you opted to take the path of least resistance. It's honestly a shame because this world sorely needs more justice and empathy in it.

I realize on the surface level its easy to think the niece is in the wrong. She did something taboo, estranging her mother, and now your sister is in unimaginable pain.

But your sister committed the taboo of not making her child feel loved. Its just much less obvious because it happened so long ago behind closed doors and is more subtle than sudden estrangement.

Obviously I don't know you or your niece or what your relationship and history is like, and I can't ask you to care more about her, but I just want to say it's never too late to be there for someone who had a rough time.

In situations where there is a victim and offender, fence-sitting by taking no sides is always supporting the offender by default.

As someone with a lot of empathy due to my own difficult past, I would be asking why the niece felt the need to cut contact with her own mom.

*It really seems like if your sister just behaved less unreasonably than you would be on her side and maybe even ask your niece to reconsider her decision. As though your sister's wants are more important to you than your niece's needs.*

I'm sorry but I am really not sure where you got that from.

My sister is not speaking to me for choosing to not take her side and refusing to stop the relationship with my niece who I adore. That is the context of that comment. I am at peace that my sister is not speaking to me because I have done nothing wrong.

The OP's post from 26.08. @ 13.11 clearly demonstrates that she wants to be and will be there for her sister and her niece.

She's defined her boundaries with her sister which is not what someone does if they're sitting on the fence and there's been nothing to suggest in any of her posts, that she considers her sister's needs to be more important to her than her niece's.

IMO she's to be commended and has been by several posters on this thread.

Quoting InRainbows from a different thread so as not to derail it

^ refuse to pick a side but I feel at peace if that decision is taken from me because I do know I have done things right from all the support here.^

I think it's unfortunate that you don't have a strong enough sense between right and wrong to take think for yourself, and that you opted to take the path of least resistance. It's honestly a shame because this world sorely needs more justice and empathy in it.

I realize on the surface level its easy to think the niece is in the wrong. She did something taboo, estranging her mother, and now your sister is in unimaginable pain.

But your sister committed the taboo of not making her child feel loved. Its just much less obvious because it happened so long ago behind closed doors and is more subtle than sudden estrangement.

Obviously I don't know you or your niece or what your relationship and history is like, and I can't ask you to care more about her, but I just want to say it's never too late to be there for someone who had a rough time.

In situations where there is a victim and offender, fence-sitting by taking no sides is always supporting the offender by default.

As someone with a lot of empathy due to my own difficult past, I would be asking why the niece felt the need to cut contact with her own mom.

It really seems like if your sister just behaved less unreasonably than you would be on her side and maybe even ask your niece to reconsider her decision. As though your sister's wants are more important to you than your niece's needs.

Oh wow, not even books hunh? And how do you think these highly qualified professionals become qualified?

Also it's lazy to discredit extensive lived experience. You could argue that someone who suffered under a narcissist for decades is more qualified to spot them than someone who only learned about them through a classroom and some homework.

Professionals may have a greater understanding of dealing with narcissists, knowing what primarily is the cause for their disorder or how to effectively deal with. But it doesn't take an advanced degree to be able to spot them.

PoppySeadBread

Smileless2012

An official diagnosis, that's interesting PoppySeadBread because narcissists rarely seek professional help as they're unlikely to accept they have a problem. It's everyone else who has one.

Do you regard the narcissist in your life seeking professional help/diagnosis as a positive?

That's assuming they got one willingly on their own volition, which wasn't the case.

That’s the only way for a highly qualified health professional to accurately diagnose it. With the person thought to be that way.

Random internet people speculating at what someone might sound to be, or psychobabble clips, pods and books proves nothing. 🙄

InRainbows, it's obvious that you have been conditioned to prioritize your sister's feelings over your own. Because how else can you withstand such childish behavior for over a year and a half and still be wondering how you can resolve their problem.

I don't believe it's possible in a traditional sense to "speak ill" of someone who is mentally ill. At that point, you are just simply discussing reality.

Addiction can be considered a mental illness, and if you had an alcoholic uncle who pushed away his whole family because he's always drunk, you wouldn't actually be speaking ill of him if you were to tell others that he is an awful drunk and that he valued alcohol over his family.

Your sister is an addict in her own way. She is addicted to never being wrong and only caring about herself. Her addiction is so powerful that she ended up losing contact with her own child (and even all of her long-term friends), and is now pushing away those who currently remain around her.

Please don't feel uncomfortable sharing with your niece how your sister's mental illness made you feel when you were children. You both weren't loved in a situation where love is usually guaranteed (being a sister/daughter), and that is not normal at all.

You would not be speaking ill of your sister. You would only be stating facts about the decisions she chose to make.

I very much doubt that you can help your sister.

Simply because you are her sister, anything you say will be taken amiss, because what we all want to say to a sister who can only talk about herself and her problems is "Oh, do stop going on about it. Take an interest in the rest of the world and not just yourself and your daughter."

We do not own our children, and right reason or none, your niece wants nothing to do with her mother right notw

Neither you nor your sister can change that, and your niece presumably does not want to.

So your choice is tough love -t elling your sister what I wrote above or simply telling her to stop moaning and get on with her life, or you hold your tongue and see and talk as little as possible to your sister, until she snaps out of her slough of self-pity.

This probably sounds harsh, but you really cannot make your sister change her behaviour.

Well done, InRainbows

The first thing we teach our own children since they are young is how to manage their own feelings and how we cannot rely on others to do so.

bakestrategic, reading comprehesion and rational thought does not play a significant role for many on here.

Birds of a feather will always flock together

Here is what we do know about InRainbow's sister based off of her posts:

She was not nice to InRainbows during childhood. InRainbows is concerned she wasn't a good parent, and her daughter said she doesn't feel loved by her. She doesn't have longterm, close relationships. InRainbows can't remember a single time the sister has admitted to being wrong. Since the estrangement, she brings all conversations back to herself about the situation and expects everyone to agree with her even when it doesn't make sense to the detriment of her relationships. She demanded InRainbows stop her relationship with her niece.

Her niece is different than her sister, thoughtful and kind, and hasn't spoken ill of her mother.

You need a lot more background information from all concerned to judge

Absolutely agree. So many comments based on very limited, one-sided information.

InRainbows has managed tosay a lot of things about her sister that does not paint her in a good light but as bossy, outgoing and doesn't stick with things, I fact opposite of herself as she is steady and true.
Nowhere has she mentioned once who estranged who and yet judgements on here mainly judge the estranged sister as narcisstic. On what basis?
I think the estranged sister needs to pull back, not involve her sister at all as she has feet in both camps. It is her daughter, whatever the reason for the estrangement she is obviously upset. It's not like pulling a switch when you are estranged, mothers and fathers have that unique relatiinship that they thought they would have for ever and whoosh its gone, that's why it consumes her. This could separate those sisters.
You need a lot more background infirmation from all concerned to judge.

OP, I think what you've decided is the best course of action.

Don't forget to protect your peace when trying to support your sister. Of course you love her and want her to be okay, but she's concerned with herself and won't be thinking about how you feel. You have to take extra care of your own needs, knowing that she will not.

That's what the decision to estrange my mother came down to. She wasn't concerned with how I felt so I had to step in and give myself what I needed. I have high hopes that your niece will be okay as long as she has loving support (which she clearly does).

I think who really needs you is your niece. It's significantly worse and more challenging growing up without a proper mother, than it is losing contact with your child because you weren't well-equipped to ever be a parent in the first place.

Even if your sister is making a bigger stink about it and constantly acting like the victim, the real victim here is your niece.

I saw from your earlier posts that you are uncomfortable talking poorly about your sister, even if its to strangers online. You shouldn't let those uncomfortable feelings prevent you from lending genuine support to your niece.

Hopefully she has close friends that she can talk to about her deficient mother, but I'm sure it would also mean a lot to her to have direct family validate her unfortunate experiences with the woman she happened to be born to.

I do sympathise with both of you. It is extremely difficult to describe the pain of estrangement. You do need to support her, by active listening. It is hard for her too. Perhaps try to distract her, by planning treats, outings, and try to help her by giving her hugs, being present, part of her life, tell her you care. It may seem small, but don't give up, little acts of kindness really help. She needs you.

Your sister is grieving the loss of her child.
Let her process in her own way, knowing you are there
Will be a comfort.
Time is the healer.

The right decision InRainbows I hope things improve for all concerned .

Very wise

I did not mention it to my sister or anyone outside this forum and will not

In Rainbows
Please be very careful
You have responded sensibly to your sister.
No need to do more.

Minor correction

... they end up going ballistic once they realize you see them for who they truly are.

It was wise not mentioning the Narcissist word to your sister. It won't help them make a change of heart, and if they are aware of the term, they end up going ballistic once you see them for who they truly are.

Well done InRainbows. You have been clear with your sister and now you must just get on with your life and hopefully your sister and her daughter will in time reconcile 💐