How do I help my sister to stop feeling like a victim?

I feel like given all of the information we have, it's a much bigger assumption to think that the sister is not highly narcissistic.

The label will most certainly help InRainbows, because if she was fully aware of what she's dealing with, she wouldn't be asking "how to help her sister to stop feeling like a victim" because she would realize there is no helping her sister. Best you can do is disengage.

The advice you give, telling the sister stuff "firmly and kindly" is almost condescending. It assumes that InRainbows hasn't already tried something so simple and basic within this past year and a half. And stating it one last time will change nothing at all.

You seem really uncomfortable with the idea that a parent could be estranged due to their narcissism.

I don't mean to argue, but your viewpoint is actually very counterproductive and not based in reality. Does it matter if the sister is actually a narcissist or not when she is behaving exactly like a narcissist would in this situation? The advice for dealing with her is all the same.

Disengage as much as you can and lie if it makes interactions with her easier.

There's nothing condescending about my response, she's asked for suggestions which I have given her.

Why would I be really uncomfortable with the idea that a parent could be estranged due to their narcissism? It happens.

Well I find the majority of your points if view very counterproductive and not based in reality so we'll just have to agree to disagree on that wont we.

Lying is the worse thing InRainbows can do. Lies have a way of being found out and that could do irreparable damage to her relationship with her sister.

Her sister's demands and expectations of others are completely out of line and totally unreasonable. Her sister also leaves no room for an earnest conversation, that's why lying is more than valid in such a situation.

They can be small white lies or lies by omission, but I do agree that lies in general are messy. My recommendation would just be to disengage completely so you are not in the position where you have to lie in the first place. But given that it's her sister, complete disengagement may not be a realistic option.

Just know that truth and honesty has no real benefit or value like you normally would expect (with a well-adjusted person).

I also want to bring up one other point.

If the sister feels comfortable making completely out of line demands, imagine how comfortable she must feel making demands for her own child.

If you think it's unreasonable to demand that an aunt and niece cease communication, imagine what kind of unreasonable demands her daughter must have faced and probably continued to face until she chose to estrange.

I know that's a common pain point for children dealing with parents that behave like narcissists. For those kinds of parents, it's difficult (and in some cases impossible) to see their children as individuals instead of their property.

I don't know how best to describe my sister. She doesn't have any long term close friendships. She tends to join groups for things and then there will be some sort of drama and she will do something else after a while. We both have faith but she has changed church a few times which, I have never done so we aren't in many social groups together. I don't tend to go out as often either. I'm more of a homebody. She is very outgoing and a big personality. Very opinionated. Has never to my memory ever admitted to being wrong about anything. She can be quite aloof. Not very patient I would say. When I was young she would never have been seen dead with me.

I feel uncomfortable saying that because I have always looked up to her.

I will say that there are different types of narcissism, mainly covert and overt, so being outgoing or not aren't indications of narcissism.

But what does really stand out is:

- No long term friends
- Drama wherever she goes
- Never admitted fault
- And the fact she would never want to be seen with her sister suggests she is lacking in empathy (by not caring at all how it could have made you feel).

I know how uncomfortable that feeling may be. I looked up to my mom for most of my childhood, but she too had no lasting friendships and never said sorry.

I remember when I was very young, we once threw a Christmas party at our house with a bunch of her friends and their kids. To my recollection, it was a fun time and there was no drama at the party. The following year or so I asked why we didn't have another party and she said it was my completely my fault.

Imagine a grown woman telling her preadolescent child that it's completely their fault none of her friends want to see her again. Looking back it's completely insane, but at the time I had no choice but to believe it.

Now that my brain is developed and I'm a lot wiser, I truly see her for who she is, and it's not pretty. It's actually the complete opposite of what I used to see back when I didn't know any better.

Making such realizations is like putting a puzzle together. You start with the edges and suddenly a bunch of other pieces start falling into place, and what used to feel confusing and unusual (such as being blamed for my mother's dying friendships) suddenly makes perfect sense.

InRainbows, your question is how you stop your sister feeling like a victim, and from what I can tell, I think the answer to that is probably that you can’t. She is adamant that she is one and I don’t think anything you say can change that, or her.
What you can control, though, is how you engage in the situation. It may just be a case, at the moment, of deciding which relationship is the most important one for you & your own wellbeing/peace of mind, and focusing on that one for a while.

It sounds as if your Sister has forgotten, that being a Mum is demonstrating unconditional love for your children.
I have had disagreements with my 3 grown up children over the years, some resulting in us not being in contact for some time. But during this time, I have never for a minute stopped loving or caring for my children. Most importantly during these absences, I would continue to send texts to them in order to keep the line of communication ajar so to speak. Let them know I was thinking of them and respect that our opinions may not align, however it’s good to talk despite our differences. We are of different generations and are entitled to voice our differences, I believe this is healthy but there is no need to fall out permanently. My advice is continue to maintain your contact with your niece, and suggest your Sister shows some maturity, respect and unconditional love towards her daughter whilst keeping communication ajar. At the end of the day she has to ask herself do I want my daughter in my life and if she does she knows what she has to do.

MarieElla

Smileless2012
PoppyseadBread is offering advice based on well researched information.
I'm not sure why you're being critical of her helpful posts.
You are seeing it from a different angle as your son has estranged you.
As suggested before, why not start your own thread about your particular situation?

No, she's using Appeal to Authority Fallacy. PoppyseadBread is claiming that's "she's well read" while we have no other proof of her claims.

I have few suggestions as to how to improve the situation between In Rainbows and her sister other than to continue what she is doing already, which is maintaining contact with both mother and daughter and resolutely refusing to take sides.

I would also advise not being too influenced by a poster who claims extensive knowledge of a certain rather fashionable condition and is applying a stringent diagnosis without having the slightest first-hand knowledge of the lady and her daughter in question .

Judging by the lengthy and biased responses you can see who have severe problems accepting that they are the problem, yet they label others.

Be kind, she's hurting

Phew. Thought that common sense had left the building until the last few posts appeared. Agree with them.
Had to leave the thread earlier because it felt like I was banging my head against a brick wall.
Never been on a thread like this where it is hijacked so completely.
Is very strange.

eazybee

I have few suggestions as to how to improve the situation between In Rainbows and her sister other than to continue what she is doing already, which is maintaining contact with both mother and daughter and resolutely refusing to take sides.

I would also advise not being too influenced by a poster who claims extensive knowledge of a certain rather fashionable condition and is applying a stringent diagnosis without having the slightest first-hand knowledge of the lady and her daughter in question .

Well said.

Fascinating.

Even as InRainbows provides further information about her sister that clearly indicates she has a serious personality disorder, many users still wish to have their heads stuck in the sand.

Maybe they see too much of themselves in the sister and hate being called out indirectly. Maybe they want to think it's normal for a child to cut contact or be of retirement age with no close friends.

Sad.

I have spoken to my sister this morning.

I let her know that, I will be continuing my relationship with my niece and that I am not willing to be a go between in any way and that includes punishing my niece for her choice by not speaking to her.

I have let my sister know that I love her and I am there for her but the relationship is between her and her daughter and my relationship with her daughter is seperate.

I have also told her that the same applies to my children and my sister is not to try and influence my children in any way against my niece and that she has me and does not need to lean on them for support.

I think she was a bit shocked because she hung up on me but this is the only way I think that I can stop her from losing other family members in this too while she recovers and is focused so completely on how she feels.

I did not suggest counselling or support groups again as I now realise that needs to be a choice she makes for herself.

I don't know whether any label applies to my sister, I can see how it might apply and it could explain some of the difficulties but I don't think I need to say that to her so she won't be harmed by the conversations here. I can just use the techniques advised to protect myself perhaps from losing too much sleep or letting her continue to try and force my hand. I can simply end the conversation if she tries.

I sincerely thank all of you for your help. I know some of you have become upset with some of the advice but I haven't. So please take comfort in that. It has all helped me find a way forward.

InRainbows

I have spoken to my sister this morning.

I let her know that, I will be continuing my relationship with my niece and that I am not willing to be a go between in any way and that includes punishing my niece for her choice by not speaking to her.

I have let my sister know that I love her and I am there for her but the relationship is between her and her daughter and my relationship with her daughter is seperate.

I have also told her that the same applies to my children and my sister is not to try and influence my children in any way against my niece and that she has me and does not need to lean on them for support.

I think she was a bit shocked because she hung up on me but this is the only way I think that I can stop her from losing other family members in this too while she recovers and is focused so completely on how she feels.

I did not suggest counselling or support groups again as I now realise that needs to be a choice she makes for herself.

I don't know whether any label applies to my sister, I can see how it might apply and it could explain some of the difficulties but I don't think I need to say that to her so she won't be harmed by the conversations here. I can just use the techniques advised to protect myself perhaps from losing too much sleep or letting her continue to try and force my hand. I can simply end the conversation if she tries.

I sincerely thank all of you for your help. I know some of you have become upset with some of the advice but I haven't. So please take comfort in that. It has all helped me find a way forward.

You have done brilliantly by speaking to her honestly and openly.I hope things work out in the way you would like them to.

It is good that you have not been upset by any of the advice. Im not sure others have been "upset"; more irritated by some generalisations and some obviously goading comments.

For you as you move forward 💐

FWIW I think you've done precisely the right thing InRainbows. You've told her what your boundaries are as well as reassuring her of your love and support.

I would wait for her to contact you as she hung up on you, and try not to worry if that doesn't happen anytime soon. She'll need time to digest what you've said.

I hope in time you will see a positive change in your sister's attitude to her estrangement and to you her sister, who she's lucky to have looking out for her.

more irritated by some generalisations and some obviously goading comments indeed Madgran.

Well done InRainbows. You have been clear with your sister and now you must just get on with your life and hopefully your sister and her daughter will in time reconcile 💐

It was wise not mentioning the Narcissist word to your sister. It won't help them make a change of heart, and if they are aware of the term, they end up going ballistic once you see them for who they truly are.

Minor correction

... they end up going ballistic once they realize you see them for who they truly are.

In Rainbows
Please be very careful
You have responded sensibly to your sister.
No need to do more.

I did not mention it to my sister or anyone outside this forum and will not

Very wise