Sleeping issues

My good friend's daughter tried the give water at night approach as suggested by the health visitor, she was still getting up to give a bottle of water when she was 4 years old! Much better to breastfeed when you don't need to get out of bed. The mother will be giving food, but babies don't just wake at night for hunger, they wake because they've had a bad dream, they're lonely, they are uncomfy, babies don't just feed for food, they feed for comfort, and being responsive to a baby's need is not being ruled by them. They all wean, mine are now in their 30s and they don't want to sleep with me anymore lol! They went into their own beds when they were ready, no angst. There are ways of getting more sleep. The breastfeeding organisations would gladly help, she might consider joining her nearest facebook group and get help and support from the mums on there
Some mothers will settle the little one in a bed of her own, so mum and dad start the night together, and just bring the little one through when she wakes, is there a reason why they are in separate beds? If cosleeping means that she doesn't have to get up it may be that until LO is waking less she actually has more sleep. Actually, there is a lot of new evidence with the new advances in neuroscience that leaving a baby to cry is harmful, google dangers of crying it out, so how great that she is not doing that.

Perhaps it is not a good thing to associate needing comfort with immediately being fed.

Perhaps that is why we use the term 'comfort food' when we're in distress when there could be better ways of overcoming distress.

she was still getting up to give a bottle of water when she was 4 years old
Did the mother not just put a drink of water in a bottle or 'sippy cup' by the side of the bed?
[astonished]

Jalima my three and four year old aren't allowed a drink left in the room with them at night after about the... fourth time they decided to pour it in their beds for a laugh?

So they have to yell into the baby monitor and I come in with one.

If Mum and Dad don't get some sleep soon there will be more than a crying baby to deal with.

(S)mothering. Not good for parent or child. She is making a rod for her own back and ClareAB is not helping matters by sugar coating any issues.

I can honestly say that none of mine had feeds between 11pm and 7am at any time. They slept right through, in a cot in our room for the first few weeks..
As soon as I felt that only milk wasn't enough, for their last feed I made up a bottle of formula with a crushed Farleys rusk in and used a teat with a slightly larger hole. Then it was just a case of introducing more food and less milk.
I only breast fed for 6 months with each.

I m not knocking breastfeeding Bibbity but no 2 year old needs food 5 times a night, all it is teaching her is food is on tap whenever you call, she will be brainwashed to believe food is her comfort and what good is that for her brain growing up
You don’t have to leave a baby to cry Oodles but you don’t feed it every time it cries
As for getting up to give a 4 year old water mine were all capable of getting their own at 4 they were also very competent at crawling into our bed very quietly if they were afraid or couldn’t get back to sleep and I d find one curled up when I woke in the morning ?

That’s just ridiculous.
BF is so much more than food. The child is receiving comfort and security.

There is so much outdated and straight out dangerous advice on this thread alone that’s why I’ve advised the Op to say nothing and just encourage the DIL to go to educated and knowledgeable sources.

Bluebelle I made that point too - I agree, associating food with comfort instead of food to assuage hunger is encouraging an association which could lead to eating problems later in life.

There is no dangerous advice on here, just concern that in fact this child could be lacking nutrients from a balanced diet and could in fact be hungry, that is why she needs constant feeding.
And if she wakes five times in the night that is probably less for comfort and more from habit.
A child of 22 months should normally sleep through the night unless ill or perhaps an occasional dream - or hungry.

Exhausted parents are probably not able to function to the best of their ability in the day either.

Perhaps if you broached the subject gently with them both,, along the lines of "do you think that perhaps .....?" for the sake of their health too, but be prepared to back off if they are not prepared to listen.

I never had any shillyshallying around at bedtime.
No drinks, no getting up, no calling out.

At 22 months I would think of this child as a toddler not a baby, which is how she is being treated. I know the general consensus is to say as little as possible about anything but both mother and child are going to be malnourished at this rate.

Well I ve just been called ridiculous for saying that but I totally agree luluaugust this is a little girl twisting everyone round her little finger not a baby in need of feeding
I wonder how the parents will deal with the terrible twos or threes

If mum still wants to breastfeed then I would have thought, if the child was being fed a balanced diet, a feed before bed at about 7pm should see her through the night and ensure a good night's sleep for all.

What happens on the nights that you look after her, Claire? Do you have to feed her expressed milk several times in the night or does she sleep through?

This little one is definitely in charge with the parents pandering to her habits.

I agree with BlueBelle and Luluaugust. OP’s concerns were how stressed and exhausted the parents are. My own opinion is generally that parents should do whatever works for them but it would appear they haven’t found it yet.

Someone asked about whether dil’s mother had any concerns about her daughter and I didn’t notice if OP had responded. Daughter might accept advice from own mother, particularly if it concerned her health.

Well ...the OP was asking for advice on her worries about her tired and struggling son and daughter, tiredness exacerbated by her grandaughter wanting feeds 5 times a night. In response she has had some wise advice linked to her original OP and acknowledging her evident awareness of the sensitivity of this situation etc etc!! She has also unfortunately had "speeches" on why BF is best, sleeping in the parents room to avoid sudden infant death, various details about what others did or are doing when breast feeding, comments on her sons sleeping arrangements and impact on the parents relationship ...and various other things!!! How do any of those help her with HER issue/worry which is whether she can help the parents sensitively and in a caring way, not because she wants to interfere etc etc etc but because she cares and because her life experiences might be relevant in helping them! (and PLEASE no one bother to now tell me that what the parents do is their business...etc etc !!)
OP I hope some of the wisdom expressed by some posters is helpful to you

Madgran77 spoken like a trooper. ?

Izabella

I don't have her overnight, yet. I would and will when GD parents are comfortable with it. DIL and her Mum are close, but Mum lives hundreds of miles away, and is moving to Europe shortly. DIL Mum is lovely, very down to earth, and has said things I wouldn't dare to...Mum/daughter privilege
I get on very well with her also. I'm reluctant to ring her with my concerns as I think it would be better to just be honest with DS and DIL. They stayed with us in autumn, and DIL mum and I had a couple of heart to hearts. We are worried about the same things and had very similar approaches to our children.
Just had GDD for afternoon to give DS and DIL a break. She is such a little tonic, so funny!

DIL mum and I had a couple of heart to hearts. We are worried about the same things and had very similar approaches to our children.
Isn't it lovely when you get on well with DIL's Mum!
But you are right, she can say things that you may not dare.

Wow all these posters who attribute 22 month old babies with such complicated and machiavellian plans. Firstly to say anything I'd need to know more about the baby's day time activities. Is she with mum all day? Is she in nursery? How many times is she feeding during the day? Is there a possibility that she is demanding during the night the comfort she isn't getting during the day? Secondly I have come to the conclusion that it really doesn't matter what happens to babies providing they are loved and cared for. The babies I knew when I was younger who slept with their parents and the babies who slept in their own cots have all grown into sensible, kind and useful people.
I was never comfortable with leaving a baby to cry and my children often climbed into our bed even when they were bigger, that was how I liked it.
As far as helping goes why not offer a baby sitting time while they both go for a sleep during the day? And do it regularly.
They could try expressed milk in a bottle but it's possibly too late. One of mine never liked a bottle and always spat it out.
I wonder how they are weaning? my DIL did baby-led weaning offering the baby a varied selection of foods which she ate with her fingers. Frightened the life out of me (a baby with a piece of cucumber!!!) but it seemed to work and GD always ate well.

Secondly I have come to the conclusion that it really doesn't matter what happens to babies providing they are loved and cared for.
I agree - and happy and content.
However, mother and father need to be fit and able to provide a nurturing environment and these parents sound as if they are struggling to meet the demands of the child at the expense of their own health.

One of mine never liked a bottle and always spat it out.
One of mine did that - straight on to a cup with, perhaps two feeds a day by 14 months, which she then decided she didn't want any longer.
They are all different but this case does seem rather extreme.

I will just say that I don't think that MIL is the person to have The Conversation, although, if asked for her opinion, could ask how DS and DIL feel about the situation and if they have any ideas about the best way forward. Encouragement, not opinions.

This little girl isn’t the problem her parents are, she’s doing what they have taught her to do, nothing will change unless they put a stop to it.
It’s not proving easier to give in as they are already up half the night with her, a few weeks of standing firm refusing any feeds and establishing a good night time routine will soon turn things around. She’s a toddler not a baby.
I’ve just put my 15 month old grandaughter to bed and will not get a peep until the morning, she was breast fed too but not beyond 6 months old when mummy realised she was only using her for comfort half the night! she went in her own room and was encouraged to self settle, she sleeps brilliantly either at home, here or at her other grandparents because we all follow the same routine.
It’s hard work I know but if they want things to change then they have to instigate it, they are the ones in charge after all!

I have had a word with my daughter, who is an Health Visitor and asked her what she would advise.
She first asked, do the parents want the child to be in her own room and are they ready to engage with making this happen. The first thing to be clear about is are the parents ready.
OK! YES, they probably are shattered and sleeping in separate beds but unless they want to change this situation then just leave them to it.
They may be possibly moaning about what hard work it is just for a sympathetic ear and not be quite ready to change the circumstances just yet.
She also said that the new thinking is that children if they want to and the parents can deal with it can be allowed to co-sleep and there is basically nothing wrong with the baby suckling during the night, she is most likely not feeding and is treating the breast as a pacifier.
She said that it probably wasn't ideal but also from today's thinking, there was nothing wrong with baby in the bed, at 22months or older.
If the parents want to change it, then fine but otherwise it's ok until they and baby are ready.
There is no data that any harm will come to the child's development, it will not necessarily make her clingy as she gets older, in fact she will most probably be a very secure child because of what her Mum and Dad have done.
All the above from my daughter, not me, by the way.