Record Numbers Not Working Due To Ill Health

Aveline

Sigh. There are no 'call out the scroungers' on this thread. Just people with experience of those few chancers who spoil the perception of the multitude of absolutely legitimate claimants. It's a more nuanced issue than some seem to see. However, feel free to look for an argument if it suits you.

Well, as you can see, the 'few chancers' are very very few indeed. 0.2% few.

So maybe that issue has been put to bed now? (I wish!)

Rainnsnow

We all have a moral compass and life experiences of ours and those around us will impact on that. Some people will verbally condemn those deemed different. Others become keyboard warriors and report . Getting the correlation between who had called out would be very difficult to obtain if not impossible due to how Data is shared. Lots of people wouldn’t formally report perceived fraud but may make verbal comments.

That is an interesting theory in itself, isn't it?

Will complain and moan about benefit abuse but won't report.

Aveline

Sigh. There are no 'call out the scroungers' on this thread. Just people with experience of those few chancers who spoil the perception of the multitude of absolutely legitimate claimants. It's a more nuanced issue than some seem to see. However, feel free to look for an argument if it suits you.

You have the choice not to let "scroungers" alter your view of those claiming disabilities in general

That's a choice.

I agree Aveline.

I would be mindful that the person you think may be a benefit cheat may have invisible disabilities. Lots of people gossip about stuff but won’t report. It’s how some are. Others know there will be a tiny element of people that will test the system. I work on theory that the vast majority are decent and honest and getting through the day as best they can. The others have to live with what they are doing. Fraud goes on in society in lots of different ways.

Smileless2012

I agree Aveline.

Another choice

Really can't understand thinking this way even if I understand why

Of course Rainnsnow there's a huge difference between thinking someone may be cheating the system and knowing that someone is.

I would never look at a person and judge them by their presentation in any way.

I only judge crappy behaviour

And I really judge it

Lol

Well if that’s the case you have to decide yourself how you proceed with what you know. I still say that the vast majority of disabled people who are claiming benefits have gone through a rigorous process and presented medical evidence. As I wrote before fraud goes on in society in lots of different ways.

*Ktsmum please get help with your next claim for PIP - it's often not what you say but how you say it!

Thank you *Gloryanny, *Luckgirl13, *Wyllow3', *Mayal, *Dinahmo, *Seadragon, *Gagajo, *Pammiel for stamding up for those who need help .... there will be more of you am sure I have missed x

Re: Long Covid being like ME/CFS, I have an issue with CFS and ME - like someone posted earlier, ME is a KILLER, whilst CFS is not. If Encephalomyelitis is inflammation of the brain and spinal cord, the why don't people with CFS get brain scans? They are not the same in my book!

*Monagran - I would be very interested to know if he has targets set for denying benefit and bonuses for doing so?

*Luckygirl13 "Can you imagine how soul-destroying for someone with a genuine need for state support who gets lumped in with so-called scroungers in the eyes of society?" It seems that Starmer is heading down the same road os the Tories - apparently mentioned 'working people' 22 times in one speech yesterday I thing it was - not one mention of those unable to work at all! Who the heck do I vote for now? Not that we will be able to get shot of that nasty Evangelical Christian Danny "it's not your fanny" Kruger in our area anyway ...

*Big Louis, I agree about the forms, people need help filling them in, or someone practiced at doing them ...

*Ikiesgranma - you should be claiming PIP under the fast track scheme, MacMillan, Marie Curie can help with that - I am sorry and send love and best wishes.

*icanhandthemback "Unfortunately, or fortunately if you are genuinely ill, certain sick benefits are gateway benefits that open a raft of other benefits and there is no benefit cap either." Yes but you CANNOT increase your income either!

*Doodledog "You're right. The whole system needs an overhaul. But if anyone can come up with a way of making it fair to those who are ill as well as those working whether they like it or not, I'd like to hear their ideas." FEAR NOT! There are about to overhaul it! The new Disability White Paper that the Tories have drafted looks also to be taken over by Labour too - apparently we wanted just one assessment, which we will get, BUT that assessment will be done by 'trained Work Coaches' (no doubt trained to deny whish the Decision Makers do anyway) who will decide whether we are entitled to PIP and UC/ESA and NOT our doctors .... this is going to get far, far worse! As *Pammiel says "It’s clear that the system needs to be overhauled because it’s not fit for purpose. But not at the expense of genuinely sick and disabled people who cannot work and need support. Unfortunately they are likely to be the very people who will suffer, because they’re an easy target." We certainly are!

Yesterday I appeared in The Mirror talking about disability benefits - last year some of THE most disabled people in the UK got £150, not the £650 that people on UC got - that literally paid for one month's worth of running electrical appliances, NO heating, which I didn't have on all winter.

Today, although I haven't seen it yet, there should be an article in The Observer by Dr Frances Ryan, which I won't be mentioned in I don't think, but I have been terrorising her for months about doing an article about Social care Charging for people who receive it in their own homes. Some 60,000 people in the UK are being taken to court for non payment of care charges by their LA's. The majority of which will be n benefits. Anyone on benefits just cannot afford to pay these - especially when you look at Scopes new research that says on average a disabled person needs an extra £975 a month, to live live a life equal to that of a non-disabled person. I managed to get mine down to NIL, but have fighting for those that are unable to challenge them at all and just accept. Many have had to refuse or stop their support at home because they can't afford it. Just disgusting, and I wanted it out there hence me campaigning to get that done. If anyone sees the article please let me know?

This has taken me ages and I am still on page 2!

Aveline

Sigh. There are no 'call out the scroungers' on this thread. Just people with experience of those few chancers who spoil the perception of the multitude of absolutely legitimate claimants. It's a more nuanced issue than some seem to see. However, feel free to look for an argument if it suits you.

Agreed.

Since 'not working' is at record numbers - there are many legitimate claimants, that's all the information needed, to me.

There are no 'call out the scroungers' on this thread. Just people with experience of those few chancers who spoil the perception of the multitude of absolutely legitimate claimants

Its not scrounging to use your knowledge of the system and the way the forms have to be filled in to claim every last £ you may be entitled to. Knowledge is power.

I read the article in the mirror, it shows the reality of disability for some . It’s a raw read but sometimes reality is hard to swallow.

Mollygo

So if you can’t tell the difference, you have no idea whether that person is cheating the system or not. Which is why the behaviour of one fraudulent person casts doubt on the validity of the nonfraudulent people.
It’s wrong, but it’s a fact of life in many situations. And every time it happens, it makes it more difficult for genuinely disabled people.

It is difficult for the genuinely disabled as it is - we have to jump through hoops just to get enough to scrape by on! I am poor enough to be entitled to a grant to get my house insulated on the inside of my outside walls, and a new boiler ... which is great BUT I live in the part of the house NOT heated by gas! I asked for Solar Panels which would have helped, but no, I am getting a new boiler to heat the part of the house I don't live. Heating that cost me £21+ a DAY to heat it to a temp warm enough to sit in a thick fleece and gloves, so off it went! I was literally kept alive all winter by a heated throw, AND Sunak wants everyone to be shot of their gas boilers by 2030! Well that isn't going to happen unless I win the lottery, which I don't even do!

Again

It only spoils the perception of legitamemt claimants if you choose to hold that perception... That the tiny minority of fraudsters means it's ok to look side ways at anyone you choose.

The process for claiming disability benefits is there to weed out false claims and they do that job far too well because people who need it can't get it

There is no need for anyone to involve themselves and their self appointed judgement will only actually serve to hurt the feelings of many on this thread. They will never be asked to sit on some sort of panel judging worthiness

Thisismyname1953

I will be 70 in a few days but haven’t been able to work since I was 58 due to a very painful spine due to what I believe was the dangerous patient moving and handling practices in my job as a nurse . All my major joints give me agony and I take strong medication every day . I’d love to be able to go for a country walk but that will never happen now. I have a lovely family who will do anything for me so I should count my blessings .

I'm sorry, ex nurse here too, now badly disabled believe it or not from an abscess which began in 1998 - 24 surgeries later I am well and truly beyond doing much other than sitting!

*daughterofbonniebelle

A physio I know had a shoulder injury & couldn’t practise. She got a job assessing sick people for benefits. If the applicants, no matter what condition, eg motor neurone disease, schizophrenia, MS or anything else, said they could walk to the shops, they didn’t get the benefit.

Exactly, and they employ all sorts of sneaky tricks in order to deny the benefit. The put the assessment centres somewhere where there's no parking, so if you manage to even get in there, that's an excuse to deny. They have cameras watching you from the end of the paths into the building, and once in they have cameras looking at how you sit down, how you get up from the chair etc .... the 'room' where you go to be assessed is the one at the end of the corridor etc ... so you've failed sometimes even before you've walked through the door. Also, you can be asked to go to any assessment centre within a 90 min travelling distance, which if you don't have anyone to drive you, you would be expected to go by public transport - and if you do, you've failed again ....

Keffie12

Deedaa

We lived on benefits for two years before my husband took early retirement when it became obvious that he would never be well enough to work again. After the financial worry, the endless jumping through hoops to be awarded anything, the endless form filling, and the constant economising, I can't imagine why anyone would choose long term benefits as a way of life.

This

The fraud rate for benefits is 0.007% yes less than 1%. The majority of those defrauding are single mom's who move their boyfriends in and don't tell the DWP.

The fovernment know this however they sold the lie of benefit fraud being far greater than it is so they could demonise the most vulnerable in society.

If you want to look where the real fraud happens take a look to the city wallers, elite and Westminster

You really don't have a clue if you think people are better off on benefits or if you think they are easy to get because they aren't

I looked it up the other day and found 3% across ALL benefits - both the Tories and now Labour are wittering on about the 'economically inactive' including people like me who are just completely unable to work. Yes I could do something at home, on a computer part time ... but I can't do mornings, as after taking 26 tablets at night I am still 'half cut', and then my carers come, so it would need to be in the relatively small afternoon window. But I often feel very unwell too, so I cannot be relied on to manage to do it every afternoon (partly why I haven't volunteered, as I would hate on someone relying on me coming, when I just can't, I would feel so guilty.) So, just who would employ someone part time, afternoons only and someone who hasn't been able to work for 13 years? The new Disability White Paper though if implemented, and it looks like Labour would implement it too now, could potentially require me to look for work, and if I could find any, I could be sanctioned! I have little enough to keep me going as it is, no heating, have run out of food, no social life at all, don't go anywhere that costs, can't walk, and since the death of my daughter I have been suicidal - nobody would employ me, I wouldn't have! It's an ongoing nightmare about to get far, far worse ....

Sorry to hear that made in Yorkshire, thanks for sharing the reality of being disabled. Again some would be unaware that this is how people are forced to survive.

I used to be involved in training assessors for specific benefits. They all seemed to be very pleasant and apparently well qualified individuals. However, not long after, they'd all left the job. I found this out as I'd phone on a client's behalf and ask to to speak to one or other of them. I don't know why they'd left. Burnt out? Better jobs elsewhere? Their replacements didn't have extra training.

That’s really interesting Adeline .

Benefits assessors are paid more than the actual benefits would cost IF they were passed.Of course the benefits are denied and appealed and denied again in the hope people will just give up.
Benefits for chronic conditions where people will NEVER get better should be for life ,its a joke that sick people have the stress of wondering if they will lose benefits that keep them warm ,fed and able to maybe have some life.
The new Scottish PIP is proposing to do this (youwont agree with it Aveline) claims for chronic lifelong conditions like my daughters will be able to be dealt with by phone and should be ongoing without the humiliation of a panel of often people with NO medical knowledge questioning you as if you're as big a liar as BOJO....though he seems to get away with it time after time .
My daughter had to take a citizens advice employee with her to her last assessment ,she was so distressed by the aggressive manner of the questioning she was scared to go back alone .
She's no shrinking violet by any means but she has not just one ongoing condition but several which have a knockon effect on her mental health,The DWP should be sued for the treatment of the sick and vulnerable .My girl can get out on very odd occassions so she wants to keep her blue badge its not a lot to ask surely?

Doodledog "You're right. The whole system needs an overhaul. But if anyone can come up with a way of making it fair to those who are ill as well as those working whether they like it or not, I'd like to hear their ideas." FEAR NOT! There are about to overhaul it! The new Disability White Paper that the Tories have drafted looks also to be taken over by Labour too - apparently we wanted just one assessment, which we will get, BUT that assessment will be done by 'trained Work Coaches' (no doubt trained to deny whish the Decision Makers do anyway) who will decide whether we are entitled to PIP and UC/ESA and NOT our doctors .... this is going to get far, far worse! As *Pammiel says "It’s clear that the system needs to be overhauled because it’s not fit for purpose. But not at the expense of genuinely sick and disabled people who cannot work and need support. Unfortunately they are likely to be the very people who will suffer, because they’re an easy target." We certainly are!

It's not easy to tell whether you are agreeing with me or jumping to the conclusion that I am 'having a go' at claimants, but as I am being quoted in the bit of your post that lists unsupportive comments, I will point out, for the record, that I am not!

My point was that those who do have a go at claimants should remember that there are also people on full salary who regularly take six months or longer off work because the stress makes them unable to fulfil the requirements of the role, and this simply passes the stress on to colleagues who have to take on the work of the sick people as well as their own. IMO (although I haven't said this on the thread up to now) it is far more honest of those who resign and allow their role to be filled by someone who can cope with it than it is to stay on the books and let someone else do it.

When I said there should be an overhaul, I did not mean in a way that disadvantaged the sick even more, and I did say that on the thread.

This thread has become adversarial, with Some People determined to pick a fight, posting their virtue signalling platitudes to bump it when it flags. There is really no need. As I have said, I've been on the receiving end of comments from someone who wrongly assumed I was dishonestly taking a seat on a bus that was reserved 'for those who need it most', and I have also spent years covering for two colleagues who between them clocked up over three years of absence whilst on full pay. I did this in a stressful role as well as my own work, and it nearly killed me - it led directly to my early retirement. I am fully aware that not all disability is visible, and I am also aware that there are those who play the system.

There does need to be an overhaul of the sick pay system, but I am at a loss to know how it can be done in a way that is fair to all. The last thing I'd want is for the chancers to spoil things for those with long term conditions who are lucky enough to work for employers who still pay when they are sick.

And none of that has anything to do with those stuck in the dreadful PIP system, which is cruel and unnecessary. I hope that clears up my position, even for those determined not to understand posts that don't agree with their POV.

Paddyann why would I disagree? One of the reasons for the phoning I had to do on my clients' behalf was to reiterate that they had lifelong conditions ie they wouldn't suddenly get better!
PIP wording really mattered. There were key words to be sure and use.

I think there's another element to this "record numbers not working".

I bet those who have well-paid, secure, full-time jobs where they are valued at work, will be more likely to 'make the effort' than, say, someone in the care-industry where the majority of care workers are on zero-hour contracts - where you have precarious employment and the lack of guaranteed minimum hours which makes it difficult to budget.

In this sector, and within those companies that cut costs by employing people on ZHCs - there is a high staff turnover and low morale.

I'd stick my neck out and suggest that some who are ill or injured end up thinking - 'what's the point?' They're not valued and their employer couldn't give a hoot if they are sick.

When my partner suffered increasingly debilitating pain from spinal stenosis - the company he (we) worked for bought him a brand new, adjustable height desk which allowed him to stand and work as well as sit down. They also allowed him to take breaks for walks and rest during the day. It made all the difference to his ability to tolerate the pain... if he needed to take pain-killers and rest for half an hour, he was free to do so - or take a walk outside, because sometimes walking was less painful than sitting. They also allowed him on occasions when it was appropriate to WFH - before working from home became a 'thing'. It allowed him to talk to his customers and give them the technical advice and support they needed in comfort and not be stressed out with pain.

This was in Norway. Many companies work like this - it's not at all unusual for your boss - with your permission - to talk to your doctor to find out how best you can be accommodated with whatever ails you.

Our government insisted on a flexible labour market - to make business more competitive and efficient. I think it's backfired somewhat - people need to feel valued, and they're not. And I think this might have a lot to do with individuals - genuinely sick - not wanting to make the effort to do what they possibly can do - because this way of working doesn't cater for that.