Suicide? Selfish ?

I have posted on the Robin Williams thread and am not going to repeat it here, but I think it's very unfair to judge anyone who's committed suicide as 'selfish' or 'cowardly' just because they could see no way out of the hell they felt themselves to be in.

I can't help feeling uncomfortable about seeing more than one thread on suicide knowing that some gransnetters have been deeply affected.

I do not think it is selfish or cowardly. As this article says:

"Yep, depression is that powerful".

veronicavalli.com/2014/08/robin-williams-everyday-tragedy/

Sorry hadnt meant to offend, just really struggling to deal with this new knowledge, having had to cope with my mum in the past, and trying to be sensitive to DiL while dealing with DHs feeling of having been abandoned by his mum and seeing his siblings in care ...

on top of being ill for months

Thanks Grannyknot that puts it in perspective.. I guess there is nothing we can do as onlookers, other than just be there when needed

I don't think the people are selfish who commit suicide. They are reallly desperate unhappy people and from this point in their lives don't think they have anything to contribute to other people's happiness.
It must be traumatic for the children left to pick up the pieces by a parent who committed suicide, but living with mother or father with acute depression is not good for the children either and they are often neglected and sometimes grow up taking care of these parents and worryng about them on a daily basis.
The parents know this and they may feel that they are setting their children free of the care of looking after them.
Whatever the situation these people should not be judged by others who don't know what they are talking about.

People who think suicide is selfish do not understand depression.

I think people who think suicide is selfish are the selfish ones. They are thinking more about how a suicide affects them than how a depressed person got to the stage of wanting to kill themselves. Just think about it! Most of us have never been there. Most of us can hardly even imagine it.

Some people have gone through unimaginable mental torment- we cant possibly comprehend that and deserve all our compassion.

When I was young and starting out in my career in the NHS, I was disgusted at the hostile attitude of hospital staff towards patients who had attempted suicide, considering them time wasters. Thank goodness we have moved on! The more open discussion on the subject of depression, the more chance there will be of understanding and help for the sufferers.

Very ambivalent feelings here too. One of our neighbours committed suicide when she had 2 teenage kids- knowing that they would find her on their return from school. I know she was suffering from manic depression- but I must say few of us could ever understand how any mother could do this. Sorry- but that is the truth.

I have been there.
I have taken overdoses when I was first married, but once I had children I would never,ever put them through that heartache.
But everyone is different, one person's hell isn't the same as someone else's.
It's still hell though.

No - not selfish. Depression can be a serious and life-threatening illness. Suicide makes people feel angry, because of all that it does to those who are left behind. But it is a measure of how desperate a person must be to override that knowledge and go ahead.

I think there's a huge difference between what I can only term 'genuine' suicide attempts (whether successful or not) and those who make 'sham' attempts in order to get their own way.

I have experienced the latter with the in-laws, who made absolutely certain that people knew what they were doing/about to do - to the extent that they didn't carry out their 'attempt' until they knew help was already on the way. It was not done as a cry for help, it was purely to manipulate others in the family and had a devastating effect on the family, especially their children.

Just to ad that my grandfather committed suicide when I was about 5; and also, as a social worker, a woman committed suicide immediately after I left her house - so I do know how it makes those left behind feel.

Interestingly, one of the DDs of the lady who I saw as a SW rang me afterwards - quite spontaneously - and said that I should not feel bad about about, as no-one in the family had any inkling that she might do such a thing and it was none of my fault. I was very grateful for her call and have always admired her generosity of spirit. It is an example that I have kept with me and I hope has guided my actions.

I think depression and bi-polar illnesses are still hugely misunderstood. There is an article on the front page of The Guardian today saying how poor the treatment for mental health illness is.

My brother has attempted to take his life on more than one occasion. to meet him you would not guess his turmoil and pain. When he is well he is a charming and friendly person, interested in all sorts of things, loves a joke etc etc but in his dark periods it is almost impossible to get him to speak.

If someone is dying from a terminal disease like MND or late stage cancer families often support a loved one who may choose to take a route to earlier death. What a severely depressed person may feel about choosing early death is possibly similar. I would not judge them so harshly.

merlot it is and uncomfortable. Many people are affected by suicide as this thread shows, some directly, some indirectly.

The biggest lesson about suicide for me was a friend's gay son who was a very lovely boy, but was someone who was just "not for this world" - too sensitive, too different, too unique.

Things came to a head for him when he had an affair with a married teacher when he was in high school (it all became public knowledge). At this time he used to calmly tell his mum that he intended to end his life. He was saved from 2 suicide attempts and would say "You can't watch me 24/7". Eventually he succeeded, he was 22. His family has had to come to terms with the fact that he did not want to live the life he had. They had to accept that that was the choice he made. In some ways, it helped.

Tough, I know. But it really made me think.

Bags what you said is worth repeating, many times:

^People who think suicide is selfish do not understand depression.

I think people who think suicide is selfish are the selfish ones. They are thinking more about how a suicide affects them than how a depressed person got to the stage of wanting to kill themselves. Just think about it! Most of us have never been there. Most of us can hardly even imagine it.^

If someone is in such a place that they commit suicide they are far too distraught to be thinking of the consequences to other people. As I have already said - sometimes it is not that a person wishes to die, it is that they cannot face living.

Anyone who wants to understand depression should read a little book entitled Depression the Curse of the Strong by Doctor Tim Cantopher, then they will have a little understanding of what it is like. It is not something that the weak necessarily suffer from.

My DiL throws it at someone that they suffer from mental health issues and uses it as the ultimate insult and in order to show that they are not a good person.

When I was much younger and someone would ring in sick at work with
depression, I would think 'oh for goodness sake'. When my brother was struggling with it and ultimately took his own life, I still couldn't see what the problem was. It was incomprehensible to me that someone would not want to live. I am now older (and I hope wiser) and I have struggled badly myself I can fully see why people would want to 'get out' of the misery they are suffering. I would never do that to my family, as I am only too aware of the distress it causes. Some people suffer terrible events in their lives, which they don't always tell anyone about, which I believe to have been the case with my brother, together with our awful childhood. They then see life as horrible and traumatic, why would they want to go on.

for some, because they have young children who need them and love them and that they've brought into the world. Sorry.

sometimes it is not that a person wishes to die, it is that they cannot face living.

That is precisely it; I remember hearing someone say once that 'there is a world of difference between wanting to die and not wanting to live' even though the end result is the same.

And much as we'd like to think we would never leave our loved ones, especially small children, we just cannot know what it's like to feel such terrible despair and possibly lack of self-worth.

41 years ago I was trying to cross Victoria Street in London to buy a pair of bkack tights at the Army&Navy for our 3 week old baby son's funeral. I was this close to stepping in front of the bus approaching me.
I didn't as it happened, but I can still feel the sensation of the black abyss facing me. Consequently I have every sympathy possible for those facing the abyss on a daily basis. It is not for us to judge.

Walk a mile in another mans moccasins before you judge him!

* Soutra*

My mother took her own life. I found her. She suffered from schizophrenia and wrestled with this particular demon for many years. I am sure she took her own life when she was perfectly sane and 'of sound mind' when she took the decision as she couldn't bear to life with this awful illness.