Dutch Election

Good post Oreo.

Unless they polled every one of the rioters how would the Police know that they were far right ?

Are they making assumptions?

There are several reports on social media about the ethnicity of the person with the knife, the police have gone out of their way to say that the person had lived in Ireland for 20 years and had Irish citizenship.

Unfortunately unrest is simmering in many countries at the moment.

Oreo you may not think putting issues into a broader context is useful and you may feel that someone's humanitarian standpoint is "virtue signaling" however, I don't and I don't think I am alone in this. The Netherlands, in common with most western countries have a major problem. Falling birthrates with economies that are built on growth means there is a need for more labour than their own populations can supply. Developing countries have an over supply of labour together with economies that can't support the population, climate change is exacerbating the problem. Most countries use legal immigration to solve their labour shortages (just like we do) but unfortunately they don't always fund the infrastructure to support these additional workers and that has a knock on effect with local communities and because the immigrant work force often "looks different" or speaks a different language or has different cultural norms, they become targets for racism. People can either try to understand the problem or they can see the immigrant people as the problem. I choose to see the former not the latter. If people choose the latter then they vote for people with racist attitudes, like Wilders, if Wilders put his racism into language which "seems" more acceptable, then more will vote for him. That's why IMO populist politics is so dangerous, it appeals to the worst in people not the best but it's clothed in a "well this is what people think, isn't it?" so I speak for the people POV.

Oreo
Global warning has had a huge affect on migration.
What angers me,is, there are ways to help these countries who are suffering from drought. But unfortunately the will is not there.
If the trillions of euros/pounds/ dollars had been put into place as demostated by this video these countries might have a channe
It would also help if something could be done to stop the Chinese factory farming ships that have destroyed the villages on the Atlantic coast.

I don’t know how long this video will run but I watched the whole film on www.google.com/search?q=documentary+%2B+The+man+who+held+back+the+desert&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:acf2872e,vid:QUAXBgYm1Ko,st:0

I’ve asked again for this thread to be moved to News and Politics. This is the third time of asking.

The reporting of the Dublin incident is a perfect example of the problem. I could see last night something going on. I had to read between the lines of the most ridiculous reporting to find out what had happened. The children and the women stabbed barely got a mention, it was almost impossible to make sense of it.

I fully agree with this.

The News outlets on TV are being coy about the perpetrator of this horrible incident which indicates he is a "cultural enhancer". FGS

And that's going to lead to more problems, again I was a defender if the BBC, if you searched on here you would find me defending them probably a matter of weeks ago. The new media of podcasts etc are now where people go, have you seen for example Joe Rogans 'viewing' figures.

Many countries are moving to the right, to a more authoritarian government, even the EU is concerned about the level of migration. It is likely that regardless of the humanitarian aspect migration is likely to be restricted more in the future.
For the UK when enough of the EU nations oppose migration humanitarian laws will change regardless of international rules, the the issue will be less critical for us

Yes, rioters in Ireland being called ‘lunatics & hooligans’ & accused of bringing shame on Ireland.
Nothing said about the lunatic who tried to kill innocent women & children.

He even looks like Trump .......

Like others have posted on this thread, I was under the impression that much of the discontent in The Netherlands was apropos of farmers, sometimes of many generations, being forced to sell up and they had as a result galvanised themselves into a political movement. Although scanning through the election results and I can't see much mention of that.

I think I also read that even more so than England, The Netherlands is one of the most densely populated countries in Europe with all the problems of dire shortage of housing that we are suffering from here.

I think it's very regrettable that Gert Wilders has won a resounding number of seats, his rhetoric is appalling, for example he collectively labelled "Moroccans" as scum a nation rich in culture, one only has to loo the legacy the Moors left in Spain to realise their considerable talents. That is the problem with attaching any blanket labels to a race or ethnicity, they won't be all of anything. I believe the human race are a mix of strengths and weaknesses, good and bad. It makes no more sense to attach a pejorative label to one race than it does to assume that boat loads of people heading to our shores will be made up of doctors and engineers or other talents who may be an asset to our country. Sure! among their numbers there could well be people who would be a great asset, equally, there could be those who would seek to do us harm. How many times, after the event, have we heard that a suspected bomber , recently arrived in the country, was a person on the radar of the Intelligence services.

I'm inclined to agree with those who have said the Gert Wilders of the world is what a country gets when they don't listen to the voices of the "ordinary" citizen. Like The Netherlands we are heavily populated and we can't pretend that our finite infrastructure can support huge swathes of people year on year, when it can't even look after our own citizens, there are over 1 million people on the council waiting list, and yes I know that is down to Thatcher selling of council houses, but we are where we are, so if we can't house our own people adequately, just where are the wave upon wave of migrants expected to live. Each successive government promises they will embark on a massive building programme, but they never deliver, hamstrung no doubt by loads of red tape which they never seem to be able to cut through. I believe we would have to go back to the time of McMillan to realise the sort of number of house building our current crop of politicians can only dream about, when of course there was a significantly smaller population. No one seems to know what the actual population figures are right now , they seem to differ daily.

Climate change is one of the factors that are forcing populations from sub Saharan Africa for example to up sticks, but repressive governments and lack of human rights I imagine is what forces most to leave their respective lands.

On the subject of climate change, a recent report stated that the richest 1% account for more carbon emissions than the poorest 66%. This is another area that I think so many are sick to death of being lectured to by the very people who make up the 1%. Why for example does that ridiculous talking shop take place at Davos every bloody year, with the private jets parked up great solid numbers, what do they achieve and if those people were serious about climate change,well then walk there! emulate some of the humility of pilgrims on their way to Santiago de Compostela, or alternatively shut up! Conversely, maybe all the nuisance element of Just Stop Oil/Extinction Rebellion could galvanise themselves to some effect, instead of holding up people going about their day to day working lives/ going to hospital appointments, demonstrate to those who do nothing but virtue signal and disable their private jets somehow blow them up whilst they are stationary on the runway, that would be good

My perception is if we didn't hear so much from political elites, people who are removed from the problems that ordinary people face, there would be a fair chance that the Gert Wilders of this world would disappear into the ether.

Kandinsky

Yes, rioters in Ireland being called ‘lunatics & hooligans’ & accused of bringing shame on Ireland.
Nothing said about the lunatic who tried to kill innocent women & children.

Yes. Well said.
Not that I agree with rioting, I don’t.

TerriBull
What a good post. Thank you for mentioning the problems that farmers are having in Holland that I mentioned earlier. I’m unsure of the exact problem but I believe that farmers are one of the groups that supported Geert Wilders.
I totally agree with your post. Thank you for taking the time to write at length about this.

What has happened in Holland is simply an indication that immigration is not just a problem for the UK.

But the problem is so enormous and so challenging that it needs - as someone upthread pointed out - a co-ordinated international response.

And, above all, it needs a discourse that is not dominated by misinformation, lies and hype from either Right or Left.

The root causes of migration in this century need to be addressed, as do the consequences of it. And unless both are acknowledged and dealt with, the Geert Wilders of this world will increasingly dominate the landscape. Wilders holds extreme views, and people should be aware that, though they (Wilders and his like) might appear to be speaking for the so-called 'silent majority', extremists are usually extreme in all their solutions to economic and social problems. Some - less fortunate - might find themselves targeted at a later date if they become a 'problem' for government or the State.

TerriBull
There are people who know ( roughly) the population: sewage plant operators. It’s the one fact of life that we all have to do: use the toilet.

Dickens, it’s all very well to hold classes on the constitutional rights of women, but cultural attitudes have often been ingrained over a lifetime, and I doubt that they’re often really going to change after a few hours of well-meant teaching.

"My perception is if we didn't hear so much from political elites, people who are removed from the problems that ordinary people face, there would be a fair chance that the Gert Wilders of this world would disappear into the ether."

Well we vote in the political elites and most MPs have meetings in their constituencies and have email addresses so constituents can let them know what they think. I've sent several emails to my MP and always got a reply. I think many people prefer to complain on social media than actually so something about making their views known to their MP. We've had a Conservative govt for 13 years so if they don't represent your views, vote them out. fwiw Davos is a World Economic Forum not a climate action forum, it's 2024 theme is "From Lab to Life: Science in Action" Not that I disagree about the private jets though, perhaps RyanAir or EasyJet could fly them in!

For many those political elites ( not a phrase that describes it accurately but I get the gist) are both parties.

If those MPs are talking a different language to their constituents eventually people stop listening and look elsewhere.
And when it happens those 'elites' go hold on what happened?
Just like the group of women at the tennis club I was at the day after the referendum results 'But I dont know anyone who voted Brexit' they said. Well no of course you dont.

maddyone

TerriBull
What a good post. Thank you for mentioning the problems that farmers are having in Holland that I mentioned earlier. I’m unsure of the exact problem but I believe that farmers are one of the groups that supported Geert Wilders.
I totally agree with your post. Thank you for taking the time to write at length about this.

I agree, good post Terribull

Galaxy

If those MPs are talking a different language to their constituents eventually people stop listening and look elsewhere.
And when it happens those 'elites' go hold on what happened?
Just like the group of women at the tennis club I was at the day after the referendum results 'But I dont know anyone who voted Brexit' they said. Well no of course you dont.

This, exactly.
And when governments stop listening and others live in their own comfy bubble, this is what you get, political extremists from both ends get into power.

Good post Terribull

I'm inclined to agree with those who have said the Gert Wilders of the world is what a country gets when they don't listen to the voices of the "ordinary" citizen. Like The Netherlands we are heavily populated and we can't pretend that our finite infrastructure can support huge swathes of people year on year, when it can't even look after our own citizens, there are over 1 million people on the council waiting list, and yes I know that is down to Thatcher selling of council houses, but we are where we are, so if we can't house our own people adequately, just where are the wave upon wave of migrants expected to live. Each successive government promises they will embark on a massive building programme, but they never deliver, hamstrung no doubt by loads of red tape which they never seem to be able to cut through. I believe we would have to go back to the time of McMillan to realise the sort of number of house building our current crop of politicians can only dream about, when of course there was a significantly smaller population. No one seems to know what the actual population figures are right now , they seem to differ daily.

It's not just houses, though, is it? It's the crumbling of the whole of our infrastructure because we've had successive governments which are ideologically opposed to investment in the public sector, expecting 'markets' to supply the shortfall. But 'markets' aren't interested in contributing to the needs and well being of the population through comprehensive forward planning and co-ordinated initiatives to supply those needs. They are only interested in making profits for their shareholders.

I saw this on another website yesterday and thought it was interesting. It is from the foreword by Lord Harrington to a government commissioned report on foreign Direct Investment

“I have formed the view during this process that capitalism has changed. Gone is any residual view that government shouldn’t use taxpayers’ money and other resources to assist private companies in investment decisions. Often this position comes with a fear that civil servants and ministers alike will try to pick winners, and fail, or that it will manifest as companies with ‘begging bowls’ at government’s door, asking for money when they would have invested anyway.

The reality is that many of our competitors chase investments via their industrial strategies backed by substantial government support.They identify which ‘races’ they want to be in, which sectors and sub-sectors they have a competitive advantage in, and how they are going to attract the finest businesses in the world to their country.

While this only covers industrial strategies it makes the point that other governments actually have strategies and are prepared to fund businesses that they think will 'fit' with their strategies.