Dutch Election

Another clap for Terribull’s post. People like Geert Wilders, Donald Trump and others collect votes because they oppose some of the nonsense put out by out of touch governments- not because they are intrinsically good people . They oppose one particular thing that people have strong feelings about and voilà, they get voted in. Dangerous but totally understandable.

I meant to add that our governments have allowed our infrastructure to degrade and the far right have used that to prey on people's fears by demonising immigrants as being responsible for the shortcomings of the infrastructure.

For those of you who can access twitter, this is exemplified by this Leave advert run during the referendum campaign, which blames our infrastructure deficiencies on uncontrolled immigration.

Galaxy says that governments have ignored the concerns of citizens, but you have to wonder what is influencing those concern..

Forgot the link

twitter.com/edwinhayward/status/1658588996497203203

Witzend

*Dickens*, it’s all very well to hold classes on the constitutional rights of women, but cultural attitudes have often been ingrained over a lifetime, and I doubt that they’re often really going to change after a few hours of well-meant teaching.

I quite agree.

And those cultural attitudes were clearly not going to change for, at least, one of the young men interviewed who attended the classes, who maintained his 'cultural stance' about women.

I don't know how widespread the problem is, but it certainly has caused problems in Germany (hence the classes).

And this has to be acknowledged. It has to be talked about because to ignore it as a problem and deem any debate on the matter xenophobic simply provokes a backlash. It may be a very small minority who maintain their rigid cultural position - but we don't know, because we don't talk about it.

Back in the 60s I had a Turkish boyfriend - he was a great admirer of Kemal Atatürk, the reforming first president of the Republic of Turkey (who pushed through reforms granting suffrage and inheritance rights for women). When I met his family, they made it abundantly clear that they did not approve of my 'western' ways. They spoke little English so weren't able to articulate their concerns, but the disdainful shakes of heads, lowering of eyes when I spoke, and glares when they thought I wasn't noticing, spoke volumes. We eventually split up but kept in touch on and off throughout the years He eventually married a Catholic girl who had renounced the faith, and most of his family disowned him. They, the family, lived narrow insular lives, never integrating, only learning sufficient English to 'get by'; the younger women (sisters) were allowed to work, but only in servile jobs where they had little opportunity to absorb 'western ways' and only until they were married - one of them to a cousin.

Just a small snapshot of a personal experience. Did it matter? Does it matter if people live side by side, each with their own rigid culture? Maybe it doesn't - until there is an 'event' that draws both sides to oppose each other, and we have what are called "clashes" which hit the headlines, and then all hell breaks loose.

We need to talk about these issues, and we also need to dispel myths and misconceptions, too.

Yes Dickens you are absolutely right.

Totally agree Dickens

We also need to be able to voice any concerns we may or may not have without being labeled as racist or far right.

Unfortunately being labelled racist or far right happens even on this site. The reason is it closes people down quickly and easily.

MaizieD

I meant to add that our governments have allowed our infrastructure to degrade and the far right have used that to prey on people's fears by demonising immigrants as being responsible for the shortcomings of the infrastructure.

For those of you who can access twitter, this is exemplified by this Leave advert run during the referendum campaign, which blames our infrastructure deficiencies on uncontrolled immigration.

Galaxy says that governments have ignored the concerns of citizens, but you have to wonder what is influencing those concern..

Their own intelligence I would think.

Global warning has had a huge affect on migration.
What angers me,is, there are ways to help these countries who are suffering from drought. But unfortunately the will is not there.

Yes, yes and yes, MeryStreep

I haven't read your link yet but I will.

My repeated question is: If we can transport oil and gas across continents, can send satellites and spacecrafts to even outer planets, why can we not pipe water to where it is needed?

The answer, of course, could be due to conflict in their countries, which causes people to flee too.
So why do we allow this? What is the point of an international peacekeeping force?

Good post, Terribull

However, one thing that constantly puzzles me:

Each successive government promises they will embark on a massive building programme, but they never deliver

Wherever we go there seems to be a huge amount of house building going on, large estates of small to large size family homes which presumably include, by law, a proportion of affordable or social housing too.

No sooner are these homes completed, than they are sold

The most recent government statistics, released in November 2023, showed there were 261,189 long-term empty properties in England. That figure represents a rise of 12,556 homes compared to 2022, up 5% annually and 16% since before the pandemic in 2019.

Why?

Namsnanny

MaizieD

I meant to add that our governments have allowed our infrastructure to degrade and the far right have used that to prey on people's fears by demonising immigrants as being responsible for the shortcomings of the infrastructure.

For those of you who can access twitter, this is exemplified by this Leave advert run during the referendum campaign, which blames our infrastructure deficiencies on uncontrolled immigration.

Galaxy says that governments have ignored the concerns of citizens, but you have to wonder what is influencing those concern..

Their own intelligence I would think.

I wonder why £millions is spent on advertising if it has no effect in influencing people, then.

Callistemon21

Good post, Terribull

However, one thing that constantly puzzles me:

Each successive government promises they will embark on a massive building programme, but they never deliver

Wherever we go there seems to be a huge amount of house building going on, large estates of small to large size family homes which presumably include, by law, a proportion of affordable or social housing too.

No sooner are these homes completed, than they are sold

No sooner are these homes completed, than they are sold

I notice the same.

Do you think it's because we are so far behind with housebuilding that we are simply not catching up, let alone keeping up?

And, the prices are beyond many people's means - especially those on meaner incomes?

High private-sector rents make it difficult for many to save for a deposit?

The destruction of affordable social housing to rent provided by LAs was a disaster IMO.

... in more ways than one. Because now government encourages the belief that immigration is the cause - not their previous (and current) policy.

And, the prices are beyond many people's means - especially those on meaner incomes?

Somebody's buying them! I think sales slowed up with the increase in mortgage rates, according to a Sales Director we know.

There is always a proportion of social housing included. Probably not as much as is needed, nor any suitable housing for older people wanting to downsize.

I can see why Thatcher’s government thought it was a good idea to sell council houses to people in the 80s and make them into property owners. I didn’t have a view on it then as too busy bringing up children, but I now can see that it has caused a huge problem. I suspect that the original idea was that councils would then build more council houses for those that couldn’t afford to buy, with the funds raised by the sale of houses. Buy this didn’t happen and now we have a huge problem of insufficient housing.

I don't think they were allowed to use the proceeds to build more council houses.

That was the mistake.

MaizieD

Namsnanny

MaizieD

I meant to add that our governments have allowed our infrastructure to degrade and the far right have used that to prey on people's fears by demonising immigrants as being responsible for the shortcomings of the infrastructure.

For those of you who can access twitter, this is exemplified by this Leave advert run during the referendum campaign, which blames our infrastructure deficiencies on uncontrolled immigration.

Galaxy says that governments have ignored the concerns of citizens, but you have to wonder what is influencing those concern..

Their own intelligence I would think.

I wonder why £millions is spent on advertising if it has no effect in influencing people, then.

Never bought fairy liquid in my life.

Doesn't mean I'm any more or less aware of it, just I still have free choice to use my brain.

To be fair I just ignore the term far right now when its bandied about, in the same way I ignore 'nazis', it has been rendered utterly meaningless .

Dickens, and those cultural attitudes may well be passed on to children who weren’t immigrants, but were born in the U.K.

Why else, I wonder, would the young boys - no more than 10 or 11 - children of Asian Muslim parents who lived across the street from student dd1 in Nottingham, have been in the habit of shouting ‘Dirty white whore!’ at dd and her female housemates?

Callistemon21

^And, the prices are beyond many people's means - especially those on meaner incomes?^

Somebody's buying them! I think sales slowed up with the increase in mortgage rates, according to a Sales Director we know.

There is always a proportion of social housing included. Probably not as much as is needed, nor any suitable housing for older people wanting to downsize.

There is always a proportion of social housing included. Probably not as much as is needed, nor any suitable housing for older people wanting to downsize.

I'm guessing here - because I've no reliable figures to look at and don't have the time to research them - that the "proportion" of social housing included is most definitely not as much as is needed!

And that's something I hadn't thought of - housing for those retirees who want to downsize, which is something we're frequently encouraged to do as a solution to solving the housing problem for families.

Callistemon21

I don't think they were allowed to use the proceeds to build more council houses.

That was the mistake.

Ahhh, I see.
Yes, a mistake.

maddyone

I can see why Thatcher’s government thought it was a good idea to sell council houses to people in the 80s and make them into property owners. I didn’t have a view on it then as too busy bringing up children, but I now can see that it has caused a huge problem. I suspect that the original idea was that councils would then build more council houses for those that couldn’t afford to buy, with the funds raised by the sale of houses. Buy this didn’t happen and now we have a huge problem of insufficient housing.

I suspect that the original idea was that councils would then build more council houses for those that couldn’t afford to buy, with the funds raised by the sale of houses.

Her policy denied the right of local councils to use the money from the sales to build new homes, so that was never the original idea.

But, it's not all down to Thatcher and her "right to buy" - earlier Labour governments, strapped for cash, began to build fewer council houses.

And after the Thatcher era - Labour had the opportunity to reverse the process. But didn't.

My own theory is that Margaret Thatcher, in order to deal with the unions' stranglehold, wanted to destroy the cohesion of the working class by creating an individualistic society where everyone looked out for themselves. Hence the destruction also of the large industries which harboured the close-knit working class. But that's an argument for another time.

And, again, Labour did not tackle the problem. In fact, by Thatcher's final year - her government had built more council housing than Labour did in their 13 years in power, apparently.

So,,, !!

Thank you for outlining the history more comprehensively Dickens.
It seems successive governments were at fault then, not just the Thatcher government.

Even after living in France for a long time I still use British customs with my family and my French grandchildren are being brought up with them.
I imagine any immigrant family does so.

maddyone

Thank you for outlining the history more comprehensively Dickens.
It seems successive governments were at fault then, not just the Thatcher government.

I was never a fan of Thatcher. At all. But I like to keep as close as possible to the facts (and that's not always easy) so, no, it's certainly not all down to her. In fact, if you do any research - her idea wasn't original, it had been 'brewing' for some years within Tory circles.

It was a policy looking for someone to implement it!