Badgers to be gassed

Bags - I agree, cruelty is cruelty whatever live creature it is applied to. People who are cruel or neglectful of animals in their care, tend to treat the humans in their lives badly as well. I've had a series of rescue dogs, all of them had pretty awful life experiences before ending up in a shelter. All of them shared and enriched our lives.
The debate about the best way to eradicate bovine tb is important, thanks for getting us talking about it.

That's a very interesting link Thatbags. It only confirms what many dog owners -sorry, dog guardians - have known forever. But it does raise some interesting questions about the way we treat all animals. Pigs for example are more intelligent than dogs but they suffer the most appalling treatment on farms and in the slaughterhouse. If, as this research suggests, animals are more like us than we care to believe then perhaps we should re-evaluate how we use and abuse them.

It's a common quote but still worth repeating: 'The question is not, can they reason? nor, can they talk? but, can they suffer?' (Jeremy Bentham)

Interesting link, Thatbags Dogs are not people, of course, and neither are chimps. Dogs are dogs and chimps are chimps and badgers are badgers, but they all share the right to be protected from cruelty. There are enough natural hazards for animals to face without adding to them.

It must cost the country a great deal to destroy animals, however it is done, and then compensate the farmers. Surely the money would be better spent implementing a really thorough programme of vaccination, starting in an area where the problem of bovine TB is worst and progressing across the whole country? It would save money in the long run, and could eventually eradicate it.

I have just watched a recording of an episode of "Pain, pus and poison" which included the campaign against smallpox. That scourge has been eradicated, thanks to teamwork acroos many countries.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-175762/Hedgehog-cull-resumes.html This is pretty awful as well. We had someone knock at our door to see if they could put traps in our garden. NO way!!!

And what is really annoying me is last night we saw a light where there shouldn't of been a light and I was going to ring the Estate to tell them there may of been deer poachers, to find out they were hunting hedgehogs. I apologise for deviating from the original thread

It looks as though Utopia for some of you on here would be a vegetarian lifestyle - unless cruelty to parsnips is an issue. FYI very few pigs suffer appalling treatment in this country due to the fact that the crating system has been outlawed in the UK but if you really want to have a go turn your attention to Europe where in many areas pigs are still kept in confined spaces.

If wildlife management no longer existed, the strong would wipe out the weak (think red squirrels.) Culling of any wildlife in some cases is necessary to reduce numbers which includes control of diseases.

It's easy to keep taking a pop at farmers. Presumably your trolleys will contain Red Tractor products when you do your shopping this weekend. Those who keep criticising British farming should get out there and learn a bit more about it instead of just reading a journalist's view.

I second merlot's last sentence

I meant particularly her last sentence, but her whole post was very sensibly expressed

I assume some of that is aimed at me merlot so I will just say that I do not intend to have a pop at farmers. I actually sympathise with them and recognise that they have an extremely hard time of it. I did acknowledge this in my link of 23.54 last night which makes reference to the plight of the farmers as well as the animals. I just don't happen to think that we can ignore the effects of intensive farming (which I'm sure is not the preferred choice of many farmers) on the livestock and on wildlife. I do support Compassion in World Farming and I am in support of subsidies for farmers to enable them to farm in a more environmentally sound and humane manner. Please don't assume that I know nothing about farming.

As for pigs, they don't have to be in crates to suffer. There are quite a few near me that have a pretty miserable life, living in filthy stable blocks and never having the opportunity to go outdoors and carry out their natural behaviour patterns. My grandfather kept pigs and he would be spinning in his grave to see how these pigs live.

I make no apologies for questioning how we care for animals and our inconsistent attitudes towards them.

Nightowl, Intensive farming has been around since soon after WW2 when the need to feed a nation was paramount. Huge strides have since been made to improve wildlife habitats but a nation still needs to be fed so farmers and environmentalists are constantly working to maintain a balance.

If you live near a pig farmer who does not farm compassionately, please don't assume this is the norm.

viva.org.uk/going-vegetarian-vegan/going-veggie/reasons-why/animal-welfare

merlot there's intensive farming and then there's this:

www.raw.info/latest/the-rise-of-mega-farms-in-the-uk

www.pigbusiness.co.uk/pig-business-events/foston-june-2011/

I accept that the pig farm near me may not be the norm, but I have seen enough in other places to know it's far from unique. There is good and bad in farming as in all walks of life.

Sorry to digress from badgers but the issues are linked.

hebrideanlady I'm horrified that they are culling hedgehogs in the Outer Hebrides. I can't remember the last time I saw a hedgehog here in the midlands. I would suggest they could send some down here but I'm afraid they wouldn't survive for long

I heard somewhere that the reason for culling hedgehogs in the Outer Hebrides is that they are not a native species to that part of the world and their introduced presence has led to problem for the native sea bird populations because the hedgehogs eat eggs – the eggs of wading birds if I remember rightly.

Some years ago a similar thing was done on Ailsa Craig because rats had eaten puffin eggs and eventually no puffins nested on Ailsa Craig any more. The rats have been eradicated (did anyone mind?) and now puffins are nesting on the island again.

You've got to feel sorry for rats . Bit like us really, as a species – too bloody successful so everyone hates them.

In NZ there are a number of introduced animals that are pests in terms of native wildlife.
Possums - cuddly looking and endangered in their native Australia - lethal bud destroying, egg and nestling devouring omnivorous squirrels in NZ.
Stoats - cute little predators that are rare in native UK. Lethal to ground nesting NZ species.
For some unknown reason people introduced all kinds of things into NZ including hedgehogs and rooks. "Dear mam. Missing rooks and hedgehogs. Please catch me some and send them out on the next boat. Your loving son."

Er...

Why 'mam' and not 'mother'?

Is this a class slur?

It was funny though!

In fact JessM the culprit would seem to be Welsh as well!

I remember my father's letters back home to South Wales - 'dear mam'. I do love the S Wales accent.

Odds are Scottish as there were a lot went to NZ but not sure what term they would have used, so using the one that prevails locally. Meant to be amusing.

My dad was from what is now S Yorkshire. He called his mother Mam.
DH is from S Wales. He called his mother Mam.
DS was born in London to English/Irish/Scottish parents. He calls his mother mama which may well morph to Mam.

What an odd thing for you to pick up on, petallus. Haven't you heard it before?

Sorry, GS, not DS

I'm glad I did n' t have to make the decision about the hedgehogs. Awful situation. Wish people would think before they interfere with nature in this way.

Trouble is they did think jo8
e.g.
hedgehogs would help us to keep the slugs and snails down on our smallholding
stoats would help to keep the rats down round here (the ones the Maoris introduced earlier...)
Rats will be a handy sustainable food source on the long sea journey in a canoe...

But first catch your stoat. I ask you? And then catch at least one more of the opposite sex? And then put them in a cage, on a boat, and keep them alive for 6 months? What were they on?
But they did "think"

Same thing happened on the small island of Canna. The rats had overrun the island and were eating the eggs of ground-nesting birds. The only solution was to put down poison in containers that the birds could not get into.

One problem - the Canna mouse, a cute little thing unique to Canna. Where rats can get in, so can mice. Solved by catching as many as possible of the mice and keeping them safe in the zoo until the rats were all gone, then returning them, or rather their descendants. It took a wee while.

Bonus was that the evacuated mice had thrived in the intensive care unit and multiplied, so more were returned than were originally rescued. Also a lot more is now known about the Canna mouse, as they were closely studied.

Oh yes! Slugs and snails.