Roma witch hunt

Was she found to be their child? Must admit I have missed most of this. I'm not happy with sweeping generalisations about any section of society, bluebell .

It's the case in Ireland which followed the Greek case. The police took the girl away (7 yrs old) pending DNA tests - I'm just horrified at that and the explicit racism

What makes you think it's "explicit" racism?

Surely there has been enough in the media recently about the "authorities" not doing enough to look at potential cases of, for want of a better term "wrong doing". There was plenty of criticism for the lack of action.

I don't see the case for racism here, although admittedly it's unfortunate that the two most recent cases in Greece and Ireland have involved families in the Roma community.

Sorry, bluebell but I get a little tired of the playing of the racism card. Surely we all want the protection of children to be the main factor in any case of this kind.

phoenix sorry but I agree with bluebell on this one. There was no question of neglect or abuse, merely that someone thought that a blonde, blue eyed girl in a Roma family MUST have been stolen or abducted. At the very least the police could have left the wee girl at home while they carried out investigations into the entirely spurious allegations. Can you imagine such a draconian response, indeed any action at all, if someone spotted and reported a child who looked nothing like the rest of their Irish family? Undoubtedly a clear cut case of racism to my mind.

This appears to be another case where the police will be damned, what-ever they do. They just can't seem to get anything right these days and are blamed for all sorts of things.

Working with the traveling communities presents some complex issues, not least of which the fact they're travellers and it isn't uncommon for families to move on during police/social work investigations into the welfare of children. Having said that, there is no doubt that the travelling communities are often subjected to racism.
I'm not defending the action taken by the guarda in this case. I don't know enough about the law in Eire, but I expect that like the police here, they have powers for the removal of a child if the child's welfare is at immediate risk. This doesn't sound to have fitted the legal test for immediate risk. If there were justifiable reasons to request DNA testing, and the parents agreed, that's what should have happened, with the child remaining at home. The risk of course, is they disappear and no doubt the police would have been criticised if the child had indeed been trafficked or abducted.

I heard an Irish spokesman on the Today programme saying that the authorities were obliged to investigate any report of suspected abuse under the child protection guidelines -surely that has to be right.
It's a matter for the professionals involved to decide what is appropriate in an individual case - I don't know enough about the case, nor enough about child protection, to comment.
But it's dangerous for professionals, whether they're social workers, police, or healthcare professionals, to back off cases simply because of the fear of being accused of racism.

All very difficult. I did think it was a bit of a knee jerk reaction, but as in all child protection situations, the safety of the child comes first - but with enough evidence to support it. And there didn't seem to be much evidence, did there? The word "justifiable", used by Iam 64 is a key word here.

I do hope the little one involved in this is not too distressed about what has gone on and I think she should have been left in the care of her parents whilst tests where completed, but yes "justifiable" is a good word to use in this case I think.I do tend to think what has gone on in Greece has heightened peoples thoughts on the subject of child abduction and if it results in children being returned to their true families I think it can't be a bad thing to stay vigilent.

"Explicit racism" so damn lame, how about the explicit racism of the Romanians, Bulgarians, Hungarians who have had these people living in their countries for anything up to 1,000 years and still haven't managed to assimilate them and continue to make them live on the fringes of their society like some sort of social pariahs.

The unfortunate case of the little Irish girl followed hot on the heels of the case in Greece, where incidentally a cache of arms and stolen credit cards were also recovered when the police raided this couple's house. The mother of the little boy, Ben Needham who disappeared some 20 years ago in Greece is convinced he was taken by gypsies, we can't possibly know whether that was the case or not, but she did say that the police were too intimidated by them at the time to do a proper search of their encampment. It is also a fact that both egalitarian Germany and socialist France are struggling with the influx of Roma Gypsies living in their respective countries. Here in London we all know that SOME live by begging, scamming and pick pocketing this is a fact and it's common for stolen goods to be recovered from them when police do go in to their encampments. For sometime there have been a number of them pitched up in Park Lane where they sleep, urinate, defecate and generally harass tourists and people going about their daily work. Local business have to swill the pavements down with disinfectant in the morning. They have been deported en mass from many countries including Italy where they were at one time camped up and down the banks of the River Tiber and where a couple of men among them were responsible for a particularly horrible murder of the wife of an Italian admiral on her way home from shopping. When I was last in Dublin a local taxi driver pointed out a large roundabout on a busy road where they had set up camp.

However, I concede that to an extent they have become demonised, but I would also suggest that this is not entirely without justification. Instead of blaming the host countries as racists, for not wanting to put up with in certain instances, totally unacceptable behaviour, perhaps we could point the finger more at the counties where they have emanated from who clearly revile these people and make no attempt to assimilate them in any way and where the Roma people themselves say they feel under threat.

Sorry I do not agree with OP.

This is not racism. I believe there was a report from a member of the public and this in turn had to followed up by the appropriate bodies.

bluebell, what would you have said had the child not been their daughter and the police ignored the member of public ?

I agree with PRINTMISS, the police etc., are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

BAnanas. You spoke honestly about the situation and I agree with you totally.

As you implied in your first paragraph bananas Roma have been victimised in many countries. And rounded up into concentration camps by the Nazis. It would be a problem wouldn't it if the authorities started removing all the children that were significantly darker or fairer than their parents. Imagine the chaos in multiracial UK. Perhaps, she said, being charitable, the irish are less used to seeing this genetic diversity around them.

Well silly, silly me, I've been so busy reading the inquest details of yet another child, along with his mother, killed by ex-partner (where the police knew all about the danger she was in and CBA to protect them) that I quite forgot to read up on the latest research evidence that documents the number of white, fair-haired children abducted by Roma. FGS, you don't need a degree in child psychology to realise the impact on this child of being taken away from her parents and clearly for no good reason, else why was she returned once the DNA evidence proved the parents' story.

POGS - the choice was not between ignoring the report and taking the child away - that's ridiculous. The idea that a white middle class family in this country (or Ireland) would have a child taken away pending tests because of a phone call about lack of similarity beggars belief. That's why I said and still believe it's racist.

JessM, I'm very glad that the couple in Ireland have been vindicated as the DNA tests have now proved that they are the natural parents of the little girl. Possibly the justification for temporarily removing this child for these tests are because the Roma tend to be transient and possibly this couple didn't have the required documentation to prove their parentage. No I don't advocate removing children that don't match their "parents colouring", I'm well aware of how different my brother and I looked as children, he inherited my foreign grandfather's swarthy colouring and I was much fairer and blue eyed, we didn't look related and I am sure this is common particularly when there is a racial mix in families.

Whilst watching a programme about Madeline McCann I was staggered by the number of children who have simply gone missing and I think if I had lost my child in this way, I would want no stone left unturned in trying to recover my son/daughter. As previously stated it is the belief of Ben Needham's mother that he was taken by gypsies, and it was well known at the time that the Greek police did not thoroughly investigate that theory as they found the Roma to be an intimidating presence. However, I'm not trying to imply that they steal children per se.

I am well aware of how the Romas have been victimised over centuries by both the far right in eastern Europ, particularly by the Nazis in Germany who tried to eliminate them along with the Jews and by communist Russia under Stalin. The Slavs continue to treat them as some sub species, but then that shouldn't surprise to us given the reception some of our black footballers get in former Russian satellite states, their racism is simply staggering. I think the EU should demand why so many of those in Eastern Europe do nothing to assimilate the Roma people within their own countries, whilst simultaneously trying to foist them on Western Europe where, they have at times, behaved in a way that is odds with their host countries.

I'm not sure I would agree that Ireland isn't used to seeing darker skinned people, in rural areas possibly, but Dublin in particular where this family are living is awash with all races, it certainly was when I was there a couple of years ago.

janea - I agree about not backing off for fear of being accused of racism ( see past discussions on FGM) but in this case, I believe thay went in heavy BECAUSE of racism

Bananas - I agree with your comment about EU membership, the Human Rights Act applies in all EU members, yet racism is more overt , and socially acceptable/expected, in some member countries. Travellers in the British Isles don't get an easy deal. Their traditional way of life is simply no longer possible, yet the sense of history and community is so important to the various travelling communities. The influx of Roma gypsies to the Uk and other European countries will inevitably make demands on public services. This isn't a racist comment about the Roma community, it's simply stating a fact. I agree with others who have linked the recent publicity about Madeline McCann to the concern about blond haired, blue eyed children reported to the authorities.
Recent events inevitably also raise the old myths," my mother said, I never should, play with the gypsies in the wood." In times of austerity, it becomes easier to blame 'outsiders' for so many problems.

Dublin nothing like as multi ethic these days as cities in England. Was there last month. Many fairly recent migrants have left due to poor economic conditions there maybe.

If offspring are to be removed from their parents because they don't look like them, what will they do with Prince Harry?

Apologies for being trivial. I am not really up to speed with what has happened. I heard about the child in Greece but had not heard about the one in Ireland. On the face of it the episode smacks of racism.

There was no need to take the child away - it must have been very frightening and confusing for her. A DNA test could have been done without removing the child.

Am I the only person on here who has lived very closely with Roma people ?
I lived in Bulgaria for 5 years and employed many Roma. My first experience of their different way of thinking was when I got them in to do some heavy work in the garden.
We had a big patio area with lots of plates on the walls, lighting, ornaments etc. when I went to look at how they were getting on all my 'stuff' on the patio had gone! Through a translator it was communicated that they thought I didn't want it as it was in my garden and not locked up in the house.
My next door neighbour had a terrible experience. He felt sorry for a Romefamily who were homeless. I had to phone him and tell him what was going on. The family would defficate in the garden within sight of us. They wouldn't use the kitchen, they would lite a fire in the garden to cook and heat up water. The two older girls brought back different men at all times of the day and night, you didn't have to be Einstien to work that one out.
And then there was the singing and dancing at all hours.
You would be horrified to see the amount of very very young pregnant girls. As soon as they start to menstruate it is normal that they will be pregnant.
I know this will offend some of you but children are a commodity to them.
The Bulgarian government make them go to school but as soon as they turn 12/13 they are taken out of school to work ( or pregnant if a girl)

I'm not sure whether we are talking about Roma people or travellers.

My experience with travellers has not been reassuring. Some years ago, we had a large encampment in the woods near me and soon the surrounding area was filthy, with human excrement dotted about, dogs snarling and barking and hostility from the adults and children in the camp.

Crime rates go up when travellers move into the area as well, I'm afraid.

Of course the majority of travellers will be decent but I do think when a sub group of closely knit people, with first loyalty to each other, live in a larger community there is bound to be hostility and suspicion on both sides.

The travellers I came across certainly did not like, and were not eager to mix with, the community at large.

As for the child who was temporarily removed from the Roma family, this would only be racism if it occurred at a greater rate among Roma families than families in general.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-grim-history-of-the-roma-is-no-fairy-tale-8906270.html

I had already read this.

As it happens the last time I came across a Roma/Traveller family whilst out for a walk, a child ran after me throwing stones and accusing me of having done something to their donkey. The parents looked on scowling.

I felt quite intimidated.