EU - in or out?

On the subject of the EU (!), Holly's quote ("The EU is not a transparent and accountable body. Because of its size and complexity, discussions can take place and deals can be done that may well have far-reaching effects for all EU citizens, without the knowledge or consent of the people that they are supposed to be representing") is what is exercising mind as I valiantly plough through the above-mentioned book. It really does seem that decisions are taken over which we have virtually no control.

Just for your interest (and to try and be positive), the book lists what the author sees as the advantages/aims of being in the EU (quoted here in the order as written - a slightly odd order in my view):

Safer and cheaper flights
Student exchange programmes
Single market with free movement of people, goods, services, capital.
Protection of intellectual property
Peace
The euro
Regional funds
Cheaper and better phone calls
Consumer protection, e.g. safer food regulations
Improved health via public health legislation, and such things as the EHIC
Environmental protection
Equal opportunities
External trade

The big worry from my point of view is the pull towards a federal state of Europe, which is favoured by many; and all the fundamental arguments between the states over the years seem to stem from basic differences of view about this proposition.

I also get a creepy feeling when the book talks about extending the EU to more countries who wish to join (e.g. Turkey) as I have this vision of a vast monolithic state (a bit like Soviet Russia) and I do not like the feel of that. The idea that all these disparate countries can live in harmony by being part of one over-arching state seems unlikely to me - I think they are more likely to fall out (as families do) as one state, than they are as being good neighbours.

Back to my reading!

Yes, it's caretakers who physically open and close the schools each morning and night. That's nothing to do with schools closing for strike action. The school would actually be 'open' inasmuch as the caretaker has opened the doors and the cleaning staff have been in.

Re teachers striking. No teacher strikes lightly or just for a day off. There are good reasons that lie behind these actions. Not the least protecting conditions of employment which are being abused and eroded by schools converting to academies. Some teachers won't strike not matter what, others feel the have to take a stand, more and more are simply leaving teaching. Is that what we want?

As for other family members having to take time off work to look after their own children that's only what happens if children are I'll, so most people have a system in place and most employers understand to a degree.

Finally it is NOT at the discretion of a HT to allow time out of school, except in exceptional circumstances. It used to be, but that's not the case anymore.

The list is very fine Mishap but a lot really applies to us very indirectly (cheaper phone calls). Some we could have achieved anyway (equal opportunities) and I don't believe the cheaper flights. It's much more convenient for us to take a short flight hop, Norwich to Amsterdam then the world than fight our way around London to Heathrow or Gatwick, but price wise it's very expensive. Perhaps this only applies to business class!

I vote for OUT. What we have now is a far cry from the Common Market we started with - and which Norway seems to have managed to achieve.

And TTIP is a bigger reason to get out. I'd rather be a small independent nation than under the thumb of American conglomerates.

I found this which helped me to understand a bit more:

www.lindamcavanmep.org.uk/how-the-eu-works

I was puzzled about how the EU commissioners were chosen and what system is, in effect, increasingly taking over the British form of democracy.

We have in the UK of a Head of State who, in effect has no powers but performs a vital (imo) role and a PM chosen by his party, but also chosen for a Parliamentary seat by his constituents in a democratic vote. In the EU we have an unelected (by the people) body of commissioners making vital decisions affecting all our futures and making decisions on world affairs. We have the chance to vote for an MEP - a nod to democracy- who in effect has very little power, represents far too many people to work effectively on their behalf so is costing us money with traipsing back and forth between Brussels and Strasbourg with little to show for it.

The commissioners are the ones with the power and the Top Dog Commissioner seems to me to have the most power of all.

It does not seem very democratic to me at all. It seems more and more like a farce.

I hooe you can follow my post! If you want to, that is.

Thanks for the link - I think the list of different main bodies there highlights the complexity. And those are just a few of the bodies within the EU. I am reading about so many and my brain is beginning to hurt - a lot!

One of the big arguments seems to be over embassies , with EU hardliners wanting to scrap individual foreign embassies in favour of EU embassies. It is an example of how some EU members want it to function as a nation state.

And Juncker is one of them!

I had a look at that book on Amazon Mishap and it's a bit pricey! One for sale was over £1,000 the others less so but still very expensive.

You will have to post an idiot's guide for us as you go along

I wish peace didn't keep cropping up in these debates. Has everyone forgotten Bosnia.
And on the subject of peace/ war etc. let's not forget that the French supplied Argentina with missiles to be used against us. They are the sort of friends you want, aren't they?

'Safer and cheaper flights
Student exchange programmes
Single market with free movement of people, goods, services, capital.
Protection of intellectual property
Peace
The euro
Regional funds
Cheaper and better phone calls
Consumer protection, e.g. safer food regulations
Improved health via public health legislation, and such things as the EHIC
Environmental protection
Equal opportunities
External trade'

I think BA was a pretty safe airline anyway wasn't it? Does increased flying due to cheaper flights cause a problem with the fight against global warming?

Did student exchange take place before the EU?

Single market with free movement - that can be argued as a good thing but other EU countries won't necessarily make it easier for those moving there.

I'm not sure what they mean by 'protection of intellectual property' - Britain has had laws relating to that since around the 1750s (I think Amercia used the British law as a template for its own).

I'm not sold on this whole peace thing either - most of the world has managed to live in peace.

The euro is, to date, an unmitigated disaster that is costing Germany a fortune.

Regional funds - I don't know enough about that.

Cheaper and better phone calls? Haven't they just been 'encouraged' to stop overcharging for phone calls in Europe?

Britain already had consumer protection.

I don't know enough about the health legislation.

Not sure about the environmental protection either (but pretty sure Britain already had it in place).

Equal opportunities - undeniably one aspect of the EU that we can thank them for.

Not sure what the external trade means.

Hopefully, someone can explain!

Approximately 2 million British people live in europe, and that is probably an under estimate, if the UK leaves the EU and our residence permits, pensions, invalidity benefits, child benefits are removed and we all come back to the Uk, do you think the system will be able to cope, schools, healthcare, benefits, a lot of people born in the the UK can claim benefits and pensions in their countries of residence, I do, I also got Child Benefit here when my DD was still at school. What about housing, is there enough Social housing in the UK to house all the returning pensioners etc.
After all why should other EU countries fund us in their countries if the UK has told them they do not want to be part of it.???????

Do you really think that would happen, felice? If so, I presume the UK will be sending quite a few back to their own countries as well.

Oh and jobs, most of those living on mainland Europe are not pensioners living in Spain, hope you don't mind our well educated multi-lingual children coming back and applying for jobs.

Why shoudn't it happen, here we need to have a residence permit to access anything, even open a bank account, it is renewed every 5 years, and is only available to EU nationals, non-Eu nationals get a completely different card and have to jump through hoops to get anything. Why should other EU countries support British people, yes Eu nationals may be made to leave the UK but the system in the Uk seems to designed to make it almost impossible to deport anyone who has a cat!!!!!!!!!!!, can't do the emoticons but I am sure you know what i mean.I worked here with a young Australian girl many years ago, she was physically deported when her visa expired. No nonsense just put on a plane.

Did no-one work abroad before the EU? I am getting on a bit now and I remember friends going to work in France, Germany etc when I was young. Or will we be banned or have to apply for visas as we do now if we go to Commonwealth countries? I don't think so.
Of course, we have neglected our Commonwealth friends because of our love affair with Europe.

As DC has made it clear that he only wants EU nationals with the skills which suit the tory party why should other EU countries not put in the same rules.
My first comment was with regard to the many people from the UK who currently live here, and their families.
If the worst happened do you think the UK infrastructure could cope, the health service seems pretty stretched as it is?????

Having lived and worked in Spain for 12 years it would be a disaster to pull out of the EU as so much work and lifestyle is tided in with the Union. By all means keep the pound and try to retain some autonomy but look at the positive side of integration with other countries. Health wealth and happiness comes from working together. What happen in history when Britain went for Spendid Isolation.

Of course, we have neglected our Commonwealth friends because of our love affair with Europe.

And that to our evelasting shame. I would prefer to strengthen ties with the Commonwealth than with Europe - I feel no affinity whatsoever for it as do many others.

If European countries dispense with their British residents, there will be plenty of room here (and jobs no doubt) once their European counterparts are also sent back (if that is what actually happens) so I'm not sure why that argument has been put forward. Then again, if people preferred living out of Britain to the extent that they moved abroad, there are, of course, many other countries they could move to - it wouldn't be mandatory for them to return to Blighty.

And why are British taxpayers paying for child benefit to be sent abroad if those people are no longer paying into the British tax system?

As DC has made it clear that he only wants EU nationals with the skills which suit the tory party

I think it is more skills that suit the country; this isn't a new idea and it is one that has been adopted all over the world and, as an example, I don't recall anyone slating Australia for putting that policy in place - or is it just Britain that it suddenly becomes an issue?

We must leave and as soon as possible. We could still trade with europe and also with any other countries we wish to, something we simply cant do whilst a member.
We pay an astronomical sum to be in and what we get this corrupt and undemocratic club is endless beaurocracy and the inability to determine who should or should not come here from other member states.
More and more large companies are now quietly saying it is best if we are independant again and those still claiming the opposite will come to understand that nothing terrible will happen and that after a period of adjustment we will be great again.
The sooner the better please.

If we are going down under now, it was not all that long ago when both the Uk ands Oz governments apologised to the children forcibly sent to Oz and lied to, and just the other day an Oz politician stated that the country had been 'unpopulated' when the white man arrived. The politics in Oz are well documented and slated by many people there, and their policy on immigrants arriving as refugees on small boats isn't exactly whiter than white either.
Lets just stick to the matter in hand shall we, the EU and the UK, and may i ask, some of us have paid taxes both in our adopted homelands and for quite a long time in the UK, why shouldn't we have the right to return to the Uk if our residences are removed here, surely as a British citizen I have as much right to live there as anyone. I do not want to but i have that right surely.

My child benefit was automatically changed from the UK one to the Belgian one when we registered here and my DD went into the local school system so i did not get a penny from the UK for her.

I got the book in my kindle as a Deal of the Day at 99p!

But our relationship with the Commonwealth is surely part of the matter in hand, as it has changed over the years as we get drawn further and further into the EU and will surely change even more if we become the United States of Europe. Just because we do not necessarily agree with the politics of certain Australian politicians does not mean that we should cut all ties with them; of course, they may well decide that they don't need us any more as did the USA so long ago. We don't agree with the politics of many of our European neighbours either, but apparently we should keep smiling and paying over the money.

Empires come and empires go, and this will be gone in 100 years. We will not be here to see it.

to see its demise, I meant to say.