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Anya, yes He does.

Thank you Jane

jingl Re your comment about trading deals – IS is probably the richest terrorist group in the world, but not very rich in terms of being a state or caliphate, which is what they aspire to. Most of their money comes from oil – who buys it?

Good article in Guardian this morning about how much of religion is offensive to people like me but it doesn't drive us to violence and murder. Suzanne Moore nails it with talk of the reciprocity of responsibility.

Oh, and before anyone jumps in with complaints about lack of respect, just note, please, that not respecting religion is not the same as not respecting people who have faith in a religon. Once again, it's important to distinguish between respect for people and respect for ideas or things.

But we're not deliberately trying to be offensive to you, are we, bags? And it's not reasonable to expect us to try to second guess everything that might upset a whole lot of people (like you) who don't share any identifiable characteristic except not believing there's a god.

I'm not sure who you mean by "we" Lilygran. There are certainly aggressive Christian evangelists in the big wide world who are hugely publicly offensive to those who don't agree with them, including atheists and agnostics.

It's tricky for those of us who don't believe in any gods to know exactly who among a "whole lot of people" we might "upset" by our comments either.

Being upset is not a big deal – and certainly shouldn't involve bullets.

"who don't share any identifiable characteristic except not believing there's a god."

Yes! That is so it! How can people be so vehement about - nothing?

Absent perhaps you need to read my post again.

absent please give an example.

And there are quite a lot of easy clues available about how to be offensive to Jews, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus....I could go on but I don't think it's necessary, is it?

Ref. soon's post: "It is darn darn difficult at times to Love Thy Neighbour as yourself. They will get repaid by God accordingly, if they do not repent." It would seem that we mortals have to put in the effort to love and forgive, but god is allowed to wreak the sort of vengeance that we might sometimes feel is appropriate but are exhorted not to do!

As I have said before, the danger with religion is that it deals in fundamentals and thus has the tendency to drift towards fundamentalism. The best way forward for many is to just seek to be kind.

How best to deal with these fundamentalists? I do not have an answer, but poking them with a stick does not seem a great idea. On Midlands Today yesterday they were talking to ordinary muslim members of the community and they were saying the terrorism is wrong and expressing their sympathy with the victims of the shootings, but that they were very unhappy about what they saw as insults to their prophet. These are ordinary law-abiding people who would not dream of shooting anyone. But even they are feeling aggrieved. Less stable and younger elements in their communities may not have the same restraint and wisdom.

In the main we all know what would upset and annoy others and we try not to do these things. Seems reasonable to me.

Mishap I too am an ordinary law-abiding citizen who wouldn't dream of shooting anyone.

I'm also upset and annoyed at things that go on in this free country, such as the proliferation of state-funded faith schools, and am very offended when I see 4-year old schoolgirls in hijabs.

But how much right do I have to be permanently offended, insulted, hurt, etc?

I have to accept that other people, legally, do things differently.

soontobe Forgive me if I am being nosy, but where do you live ? (approximately - don't be exact) And have you spent your entire life so far in an enclosed order? Because you don't seem to know very much about other religions except your own, and you only have the basic teachings about that.

I live in the UK
I dont live in an enclosed order!
I dont know that much about other religions, probably about the same as the average person.
Personally I would say that I know more about christianity than the average person, quite a lot more. People with special needs are and can become christians.

And their faith is as deep and as meaningful as other christians. It is lovely to see.

I didnt realise that gransnet is exclusively highbrow?

I haven't followed all of this thread but how/where does the reference to people with special needs fit in? Who are you referring to soon? Have I missed something?

It was just that it is common knowledge in the UK (and elsewhere) that Muslim women are expected to wear a hijab (a scarf tied so as to cover all their hair) when they are anywhere that men other than their close family will see them. They wear long sleeves too.

Usually they wear them from their teens (when it is assumed that men will notice them) but sometimes really tiny girls appear, all wrapped up like a parcel in the hijab - it must make it difficult for them to run and play as a child should.

The hijab is very like the headwear that nuns wear - or used to wear, a lot of them now go bare-headed.

Really devout Muslim women wear a burka, a shapeless black garment which covers them from head to toe, the face too, with just a mesh panel across their eyes so that they can see where they are going.

The result of all this covering up is that the sun cannot reach their skin. sunshine is essential for the body to make vitamin D for strong bones, so these women can become so short of it that their bones are weak, and they get rickets.

I think soontobe may be in close contact with people with special needs. You are right, soontobe when you say that it is lovely to see those people with a central purpose to their lives, and reaching out to make contact with others.

Another time, could you ask questions like that on the thread I started Elegran?

Thank you Elegran

Elegran the customs of covering the body and head and face are cultural, not doctrinal. Muslims are instructed to dress modestly, men and women. How 'modestly' is interpreted depends on local traditions and social pressure. Women from the Punjab wear very similar traditional dress whatever their religious background and so do women from Bangla-desh. I could point to many other examples. This practice of totally covering women spread out from Saudi Arabia and there is a distinct difference between the generations, which Yasmin Alibai-Brown wrote about yesterday (link above).

I've only known one Muslim woman well. She was of Pakistani origin, but third generation British. She wore long trousers and long sleeved shirts, usually a tee shirt with an open shirt over it - but nothing on her head. (It would have been difficult as she had masses of really curly hair). Very modestly dressed. But there was nothing to mark her out as being Muslim. And that's how she liked it. Her religion and beliefs were private and nothing to do with anyone else.

I was simpifying when I posted. I do know that not all Muslim women feel they should wear the hibab. However, many of the devout ones in Britain like to show their faith by adopting it. That was what I was saying to soontobe

My Muslim friends/acquaintances wear different choices of attire.

To be honest most of them wear western style clothing but do, when they deem it appropriate, wear full attire and a scarf.I do not have one friend who wears a niqab for no other reasonreason than they are opposed to them.

I have certainly noticed more and more women wearing the niqab!

As I said I don't hold much love for Yasmin Alibhai-Brown but her article absolutely sums up my view and I have discussed one of her articles with a couple of my Muslim friends before. They agree with what she says and they too find the wearing of the niqab repressive.