Hunting

I agree when. Some traditions are bad traditions and have no place in civilised society.

I don't think putting boys up chimneys had anything to do with tradition!! As for Fox control, shooting can be a very hit and miss affair causing horrible injuries, particularly in the hands of the inexperienced. As far as I'm concerned poisoning, lamping trapping, gassing and people taking a pot shot are far worse cruelties than hunting, but that's just my opinion.

However they are slain, there is the risk of it being slow and messy. I just find it distasteful that there are those who regard this as sport and take pleasure in it - that seems pretty warped to me, especially as a lot of hunt supporters claim to be animal lovers.

As far as I'm concerned foxes are wild animals with no natural enemies and need to be kept under control. Shooting, when you're a busy sheep farmer ditto poultry is far too time consuming, also you have to be an excellent shot EVERY time otherwise an injured animal will be left to die a very unpleasant death. Gassing, poisoning, lamping,trapping are all far more cruel than hunting. This is just my opinion.
I'm not sure that sending boys up chimneys had much to do with tradition!!!!

Anyone who has kept hens will be familiar with the slaughter that takes place if a fox gets amongst them. Foxes like to kill, it seems whereas most wild animals kill to eat. I sometimes spend time with people who go hunting and separately (lol) with people who act as hunt saboteurs. I niggleynellie makes good points about the alternatives to hunting.

It's no secret on gn that I'm not a right winger, but I don't share the view that hunting is all about "upper class twits on horseback". The folks I know who go hunting are a very mixed group, none of them could possibly be categorised as "upper class twits" though they will be hunting on horseback.

Anya is right, hunting with dogs is a very emotive subject. I'm surprised at myself because I feel less emotive about this subject than I do about many others. Before the hunting ban, I never had the misfortune to see any hunt actually catch a fox. Lots of galloping around but on more than a few occasions, I'd see the fox go in one direction whilst the pack of hounds went in the other. I accept I may feel slightly less laid back had I seen hounds tear a fox to pieces.

nigglenellie, being chased across country by a large pack of hounds and possibly fifty people on horseback , hounds braying, humans shouting plus the obligatory horn blasting, reaching exhaustion, body filled with adrenalin ,
at point of collapse being attacked by hounds and ripped limb from limb is less cruel ?

As for poultry farmers, many keep poultry in cages in sheds now , not to protect the poultry though .

I am far more concerned for the animals than the poor hard working farmers ,

Iam64, I promise you if you had witnessed the fox being attacked by the hounds whilst surrounded by cheering horse riders or seen the terror in the eyes of the fox, or heard their scream it would stay with you for life , I witnessed my first hunt in the late fifties and have campaigned ever since . Pleasure from killing an animal is wrong

The most honest hunters I have ever heard was two girls interviewed in a BBC programme on hunting - it's better than an organism

I read an article recently and found that people have been feeding the foxes on Tooting Common, with the result that foxes are becoming a real problem, ransacking bins, killing small animals etc because they have been encouraged. They foul public areas and of course nobody scoops their poop. Someone put poison down to kill the foxes and the result was the death of a much loved family labrador.
I think hunting foxes with hounds is revolting. But how to control foxes in urban areas?

Most wildlife programmes stress how important it is for wild animals to not associate humans with food thereby losing their fear of them [the exception being garden birds I suppose].

I am neither for or against hunting, I don't think it should ever have been banned. What do we ban next shooting, fishing etc. I do not intend to enter this debate as my opinions are firm and will not change.
However I would ask, how would you control fox numbers ?.
Shooting ? Have you ever seen a large animal like a fox with shotgun wounds, shotguns are the only firearm easily available to farmers and unless at very close range will injure rather than cleanly kill. leaving the animal to slowly die. Suitable calibre riffles are not easy to obtain a licence for.
Poisoning, not selective, dogs will take poison meant for foxes/
Trapping, again not selective.

Death by hounds may be horrific, but a fox will rarely survive to suffer on.

Urban foxes, if people stopped feeding them and leaving rubbish for them to eat, their numbers would diminish naturally.

It was accepted by the Burns enquiry into hunting that hunting with dogs had an insignificant effect in terms of fox population controlling most areas (Wales being one exception). Other methods have always been more significant and in fact there is some dispute about whether any human attempts to control numbers have any effect at all.

Nature is good at regulating populations of all species. For predators such as foxes (and most carnivores don't have any natural predators so it is a red herring to say that humans have to fulfil that role) their numbers will be controlled by available food, habitat, diseases etc. If populations reach unsustainable numbers, then these will self regulate through litter numbers decreasing, starvation, etc. The Burns enquiry found that human attempts to control fox populations are not necessarily effective, as this can result in litter size increasing and in foxes moving in from other areas. It is estimated that fox numbers have remained fairly stable for as long as figures have been known.

I think it is human arrogance to believe that we are the species that needs to be in control of all other species. We only ever do this to protect our own interests and the other animals can manage very well without interference from us. In any event, the picture re. foxes is far from clear cut - they are very effective at controlling the rat population and our cities could be far more unhealthy and dangerous places if the rat population were to increase - as might happen if those who would like to wipe out urban foxes had their way.

Well done Anniebach for everything you do to oppose fox hunting. I agree with those who find the idea of hunting and killing for pleasure despicable. It seems to me that we have a choice; we can choose to exercise the qualities of empathy and compassion for other creatures, the very qualities that I believe make us human, or we can choose to ignore them and be little better than the lowest forms of animal life.

I am against hunting.
I am not arguing at all with the need to control/cull certain pest animals but to make it an elitist social event is not acceptable.

Certain animals like Mink have caused huge damage to water voles and other native species and such things always cause knock on problems within that creatures food chain.

Why not just develop exciting cross country rides.

Breeding fowl so they can be shot as sport pompa ? Yes ban it . Fishing just to throw the fish back? Yes ban that too. Why the need to control? nature is quite capable of self control, we have animals in danger of becoming extinct, nature didn't cause this, man did. Who caused the decline in red squirrels ? man did. For me it's a miracle we still have wildlife .

Nightowl, thank you. One of the most beautiful sights I have witnessed was when I was driving on a country road and passing a field I saw a fox trotting
across a field with a flock of sheep grazing, some sheep raised their heads then went back to grazing , the fox just went it's merry way , those few minutes made being hit with riding crops, being sworn at and even having a farm gate slammed on my hand so worth while .

I will just add, The Countryside Alliance is financially supported by very wealthy land owners such as the Duke of Westminster , if there is a move to
scrap this law please remember those who fought to ban hunting had no financial aid but we did have moral support from many and this meant so much

p s. There is talk of clamping down on puppy farms , if it is ever discussed here , I will do my best not to comment

Without taking sides in the hunting debate, few wild animals in the natural state die peacefully in their beds. Many foxes at the present time die of starvation, just as deer do, because the competition for food is so fierce. Except on Tooting Common, apparently.

It is the pleasure in suffering that gives me the creeps.

Nature is grim, and killing is grim, and it is going on around us all the time in every beautiful view we gaze at - but do people have to actually enjoy it?

Species killing each other to stay alive is a very different thing.

Hunting for fun is what gets me ...... if foxes are worrying your sheep then shoot/trap the buggers if you can, but don't dress up and cavort around then pretend that it's all about conservation!

^One of the most beautiful sights I have witnessed was when I was driving on a country road and passing a field I saw a fox trotting
across a field with a flock of sheep grazing, some sheep raised their heads then went back to grazing , the fox just went it's merry way^

It was probably sussing out which ones were most vulnerable so that it could come and kill them later at night. It would only take one away to eat and leave the rest of the lambs in a mutilated and dying.

I thought my first post didn't go through, so I virtually repeated myself. Apologies.
Puppy farming is absolutely disgusting, people involved should be locked up for a very long time. It's extremely cruel, and no way compares with Fox hunting. Having come from a farming family I probably have a different view of the furry Fox! The sounds of distress coming from a raided hen house isn't
a happy one, still less the cries of lambs and their distraught mothers. Presumably the fishing ban would include deep sea fishing? The fish caught here are left to gasp to death - extremely cruel I would say, but then a visit to a slaughter house should put most people off eating meat for ever! I suppose these poor creatures are out of sight and inevitably out of mind, so of no importance on the cruelty front!!

Apologies:
superfluous 'in a' in the last line
and the first part should be in italics as it was a quote.

If that comment is aimed at me rose, then I've no idea what you mean, but I guess, being a country clod, I don't have the benefit of your superior education.

Not sure which comment you mean, nigglenellie - the first part of my post was quoting anniebach's post above (it didn't come out in italics)

The second part of the post is what I thought the fox would be doing as it trotted across the field and then went on its merry way (sussing out which lambs looked ready for the kill imo).

Of course, it could be big cats at fault.

My next post was correcting my previous post because I typed it, changed a bit then posted it before checking.

No superior education at all (could be inferior for all we know!)

It is the pleasure in suffering that gives me the creeps. Me too, Mishap. That was why I mentioned boxing; it's not the consenting pugilists but the audience's pleasure in their hitting nine bells of hell out of each other that disgusts and horrifies me.

You're right absent, if people take pleasure in suffering, that is nauseating.