Hunting

nigglynellie, perhaps because you come from a farming family you assume you have a more indepth knowledge of the animal kingdom. I cannot compare a fox killing a chicken to man killing an animal for sport, the fox does what a fox does, a hunter chooses to kill for fun . Animals are cruel , does this excuse the cruelty of man?

As for slaughter houses, I have fought against the brutality carried out in these places and have witnessed the slaughter carried out , and those are the places to hear animals screaming and smelling the fear. I was also in the campaign to stop farmers packing cattle trucks with calves to ship them abroad , hours and hours without water and so packed together forced to stand. I even succeeded in getting a farmer prosecuted for cruelty to his stock . I don't 'do' cute, furry ickle creatures , I abhor killing animals for fun and cruelty to animals which is carried out by many in the farming community angers me , there is never a good reason to choose to inflict suffering on an animal ,

So committing an animal to cruelty is ok so long as it's for commercial reasons?! Is that the reason we never see protesters outside slaughter houses? Even the recently reported accounts of atrocious behaviour failed to invoke a murmur! Why aren't deep sea fisherman's boats blockaded in their ports? Again I suppose commercial reasons dictate that this particularly unpleasant way of killing fish is ok, but fishing for them in the river is cruel!! Presumably sow crates are also ok, I see no protesters! Hens in cages, the list is endless, and that's just the UK. I too protested years ago at Plymouth over the export of veal calves which was a wicked cruel trade; not sure that anyone would be that bothered these days if the export of live animals is anything go by. I think the hunting issue is far more to do with class hatred than the love of foxes!

You are quite correct about the cruelty involved in commercial fishing, fish are dragged up from the depths, their swim bladders probably rupture due to the sudden change in pressure, they them suffocate to death over many minutes or even hours. But most of us happily eat our cod and chips. Is this not hypocritical.

Even so called "line caught fish" are not killed quickly and may be left on the line for days.

All of this can be seen if you watch the many programmes about commercial fishing (Trawler men etc)

I fish for trout, unless they are undersize and must be returned, they are killed outright within 30 seconds of being caught. Where possible any fish that has to be returned is unhooked in the water and is no handled.
I do not fish for coarse fish as I object to the way fish (especially by carp anglers) are treated.

Without anglers many of our waterways would be polluted, anglers are key in prosecutions against polluters, many of which are the water companies (untreated sewage) OK, this campaign could have been taken up by some other group, but it wasn't. So you have anglers to thank for the return of the otter etc. into our clean rivers.
See :- fishlegal.net/

I will now get off my soap box and leave.

I totally agree with you pompa! Also a final query. Why is it acceptable to use terriers to flush out rats prior to shooting or clubbing them, and not foxes?!! Pretty horrible on both fronts, but no protesters for the rat. Hypocrisy again I'd say!!!!

Because IMO, most of our population live in towns and cities, town dweller's see rats as vermin whilst foxes are pretty and cuddly and not considered vermin.

I've never understood why some animals are considered vermin and some aren't. I've always been against any cruel so called "sport". As previous posters have noted its the relish in the cruelty that's so sickening. No class attitude from me. I'm an equal opportunities anti cruelty person! I hate everyone who is knowingly cruel to animals. I like foxes and rats too.

Nigglynellie, it was an animal rights group who filmed the recent atrocities at a slaughter house, so you are mistaken to claim we never see protesters at slaughter houses. You use the age old but weakest argument to defend fox hunting, class has nothing to do with it, neither does cuddly and cute

I take that as a personal attack Jane10.
I am NOT knowingly cruel to fish, as I stated, the fish I catch are killed far more quickly and humanely than commercial fishing and are eaten.

At least I am prepared to kill what I eat, not leave it to some one else to do the deed. If we are prepared to eat animals, we should be prepared to kill them.

I too hate cruelty to all animals, but what gets to me is that Fox hunting is selected out of a host of other equally if not worse cruelties, pursued vociferously to the point of hysteria, whereas anything else is just not even mentioned including puppy farms!! Surely protesters should be blocking and harassing these awful places run by people whose only aim is to make as much money as possible out of the misery of these poor dogs. The whole thing reeks of hypocrisy. Foxes need to be kept under control, as do magpies, mink and other countryside killers, and for me hunting is the least cruel way to do this when considering the alternatives.

Nigglynellie , I assure you people are campaigning daily against animal cruelty, you spoke of the brutality shorecently in a slaughter house but you were not aware it was an animal rights group who got in there and filmed it. As for puppy farms, you obviously have not the foggiest how much is done to change the laws and what campaigners are up against . Every day there are people driving around the country rescuing dogs, filming disgusting breeding farms, raising money etc. We did get a tightening up in the nineties but not as much as hoped for. As long as people are willing to buy these puppies there will be people eager to produce them. I speak as someone who worked for the NCDL now dogs trust with the news of the world, we went into these farms and it was hell , I even had a shot gun pointed at me by one idiot farmer. After the foot and mouth more farmers applied for licences to breed puppies, the bitches are kept in barns bred from twice a year untill they are exhausted, then if they can't be sold for a few pounds they are shot

I have posted too much sorry, but I feel so strongly about animal cruelty , and the kennel club are hypocritical too by the by

pompa sorry I did not mean that you were in any way intentionally cruel nor do you relish it. I must have written it in a confusing way. Sorry again. Meanwhile go annie!

Jane10

I admire you enormously Anniebach. I do a lot of talking and writing, but not much doing. You're an inspiration

I know you're right anni on the campaigning front, posters are put up and pertinent people contacted, but what you don't get is people coming from far and wide to protest outside (and inside if they can) the gates of a particular place or try to disrupt what is happening by confrontation. The other day we even had a police helicopter overhead, the clash was that bad. I don't think the protesters front up the puppy farmers or slaughter house staff, or any other suspect establishment. So why just Fox hunting?

The activity of fox hunting itself is hardly unobtrusive?

A bit late coming to this, and I'm going to refer back to page 1.

I thought mrsmopps question was well phrased, to my mind at least, it seemed to be made in a sort of open, general way and to accuse her of trying to start some sort of argument was a bit OTT and expressed in a somewhat belligerent way!

Those who are familiar with what I usually post or comment on will know that it is pretty rare for me to make this type of post.

I suppose because its such an emotive subject I was very surprised at the thread topic at all as it was so likely to lead to the sort of responses it got (not just from me!)

Can't say I entirely agree with this, either "nature is quite capable of self control"

Much native British woodland is under threat, as deer have no natural predators and love to eat saplings, thus preventing them growing into mature trees.

Phoenix thanks.

Jane10 gransnet boards are full of emotive subjects, illness, death, divorce, are you surprised by all of them too?
There is nothing wrong with a healthy debate and I noticed you posted several times on this thread.
Shall we just talk about fashion, make-up cookery and how to get the washing white, in case somebody gets emotional?

The problem with nature controlling itself is that we have been interfering for far too long.

Just look at the problem that deer cause, not only to the countryside but to their own health. We have provided them with a safe environment by eliminating their natural predators (anyone want bears, wolves, lynx, etc back ?) whilst on the one hand reducing their habitat and on the other providing them with more food by way of crops.

So we now find it necessary to cull in order to maintain healthy numbers.

mrsmopp I am well aware of all the many and various topics on GN. I meant that the subject of hunting foxes is such a contentious activity that raising it as a topic can only lead to such responses as my own. I contribute to all sorts of threads on here -remarkably few on the anodyne one you suggest I might prefer.

Of course her hunting isn't unobtrusive!! A great many people engage in it and even more support it, the turn out will tell you this. The problems arise from those who come from far and wide to try to wreck it by any means, not the people who support it!! Maybe they could occasionally turn their hostile attentions to other aforesaid cruelties, instead of just singling out hunting?!!!

phoenix good post in response to the OP which posed a couple of very reasonable questions by mrsmopp.

Threads about GPs being estranged from DGC, people's health treatment, bereavement etc are, imo, more emotional than this subject.

I think the assumption that those who oppose fox hunting couldn't care less about other forms of animal cruelty is incorrect. I'm sure those who don't like fox hunting also don't like greyhound racing, dog fighting, puppy farms, etc. etc. I don't think, for the great majority of people, it is a class issue. I disagree with greyhound racing, which is predominantly a "working class" interest.

If I lived near a hunt I would no doubt be very aware of it. I'm not sure I would be aware of a puppy farm. I should imagine they keep a fairly low profile.

Talking of greyhound racing being predominantly a working class interest, so is coarse fishing! Maybe that's the reason that these two interests are largely left alone on the protest front!!! Interested in cruelty? Maybe, maybe not!