Cameron Shaming the Country

No prime minister in this country has the right to make decisions without consulting parliament. That's what a democracy is. It can be done without cameras there, but he should not be allowed to make decisions on his own.
He did not even consult the cabinet.

Haven't heard of anyone having chats , talks yes, chats no.

I am open to all suggestions on how to stop the hell that is now the middle east

As I had obviously misunderstood what you said about future votes, why are you asking me about Iraq and Afghanistan, Anniebach?

And once again I ask, would you have accepted an IS attack on the UK as being perfectly acceptable because at least our PM had acted in accordance with the rules - never mind the deaths of possibly thousands?

Having said what he has now in Parliament, do you think there will be no reprisals?

The upside to that scenario Ana, is maybe we would get a break from this terminal wallowing in self righteous indignation against anything that doesn't fit in with certain view points, because as we are constantly reminded by some on here who frequently tell us they are much, much nicer people and care far more than the rest of us about absolutely everything. Possibly you could be excused if you are one of the unfortunates that carry any English dna. Battling that inner oppressor gene is constant, how it rises to the fore at times thus rendering the carrier a complete non carer bastard with a total disregard for his/her fellow man. I blame it on England's dismal landscapes "what's to like" as one GN pointed out on another thread!

Why couldn't Cameron have gone over or sent someone to the IS controlled area of Syria and brought them back?
I don't know.
Perhaps you could have volunteered to pop over there, djen and asked them nicely to come back for a fair trial with due consideration for their human rights.

The Yazidi family interviewed on the train to freedom brought tears to my eyes, they were so thankful their two little girls were now safe from IS, unlike so many of their people.

Naive is a very understated word.

Ana, we trotted along with America over Iraq and Afghanistan, are we safer now ?

I could never accept an attack on innocent people , you seem to think I don !t care that people could be killed , I care, I care deeply but I do not share your trust in Cameron , and yes I campaigned against the government taking us into the Iraq war , my mistrust has nothing to do with party politics , when it comes to politicians ,war and truth I hold doubts

I'll reiterate again, depending on where you and your love ones live in the UK, some will never have to contemplate the possibility that a terrorist attack will affect them in anyway. It does focus the mind somewhat.

A targeted attack on a known terrorist is not the same as an attack on innocent people.

A member of my family was one of Saddam's human shield.

It's about time bodies such as the United Nations grew a backbone and declared IS a world wide terrorist organisation, stop pussy footing about and declare all out war on IS.

Countries will be able to unite to destroy the barbaric organisation IS with full autonomy to destroy it and all those who are prepared to share in it's ideology male or female.

The Iraq war has proven to be a curse on this country and I understand the reason why but for goodness sake the world cannot be come so impotent it runs scared because of it as it only allows the likes of IS to flourish.

It appears to me that the target of aggression is almost as much about the dislike/mistrust of Cameron as it is the killing of a terrorist.

If only IS respected national boundaries! ! !

The BBC are saying 'so-called' Islamic State. What the hell does that mean? Is it me or does anybody else find that annoying, it 'is' Islamic State.

Nicholas Mercer? Is this the Human Rights Lawyer? Then he certainly would NOT have been "in the loop"! The man has a history of opposing the military! I would take any pontifications from him with a very large amount of salt.

It probably makes me a Bad Person, but I really feel no regret that two jihadists, who having been educated in this country and chosen the path of hatred, have been killed.

Pogs - my understanding is that the BBC has been heavily criticised for calling IS the Islamic State, that's why the phrase "so called" is now being used. The criticism was that by calling the terrorists Islamic State, the BBC was somehow legitimising it.

I'm finding the polarised discussion a bit tedious, though I can see how it's happened.

I don't believe a "chat" with Islamic State would sort things out but I wish proper talks between significant countries with influence could be arranged. I'm sure that diplomatic efforts are being made but I so wish someone, anyone, would get the Russians, Saudi's and other key Arab states, EU leaders and the USA round a table to try and reach some consensus about how to prevent these murderous individuals continuing to rampage about killing innocent people. I'm sure others with a better understanding of the area will point out other countries I should have included.

I agree Iam. Russia and the Arab States are the key I think. We need to know who's providing the arms - to all sides - and persuade them to stop. Somehow. Someone is funding these wars and providing the ammunition to keep them going. Why? To whose advantage? Certainly not the Syrians.

To me, democracy is on a par with freedom of speech which of course we all uphold until it becomes abused i.e. the N word which I think we all agree is totally unacceptable, any abuse that is homophobic, racist, or totally derogatory is quite rightly dealt with in the most severe way; Therefore freedom of speech is not a free in all circumstances and clearly never can or should be. The same with democracy, yes of course, but in extreme circumstances such as defence of the realm and its citizens, backed up by intelligence you cannot wait till IS or whoever, is actually committing acts of extreme brutality under your nose before you finally decide, after endless heartsearching and much handwringing that now is the time to actually do something. I'm sure Russia and the Arab states are the answer, but how on earth do you ever get meaningful dialogue with either?!!! Russia perceives the West as weak and ineffective, the Arab states probably think the same. Truth is that they run rings round us and we can do absolutely nothing about it except defend ourselves as best we can and put up with bricks and boulders that will inevitably, metaphorically be thrown at us . No you shouldn't celebrate people being killed, but for the removal of these monsters there is one big cheer in this family.

I don't think your thoughts make you a "bad person" Anya. I think the whole thing is very confusing. We no longer trust governments to tell us the unvarnished truth which doesn't help - although we were probably naïve for ever doing so.

Do we have a legal right to do this? I can't believe we do but I also don't know why we would need to. Surely anyone who has gone to fight for an enemy of our country is committing treason. I don't believe that means you can kill them without a trial but it should mean you have other options open to you. I actually don't know what the country can do if someone commits treason and haven't heard any discussion of it. If anyone has any insight into this I would love to know.

Putin is giving Assad weapons , training and intelligence.

Russia and China have vetoed any United Nations attempt to stabilise Syria .

The only hope we have is Putin and China stop vetoeing the rest of the world from action but Putin especially has his own agenda and it will be a miracle if he announces he will join the fight against IS . This is one view I would love to be proved wrong and Putin joins in to annihilate IS today.

No government is ever going to tell the unvarnished truth to its population, particularly on matters of security nor should they unless they have a death wish (literally). As for Russia? If only!! China ditto. I'm afraid they perceive us in the West as dithering, ineffectual, and weak. Putin barely bothers to disguise his scorn for us! Our intervention in the first place was with hindsight a complete disaster, the road to hell etc comes to mind, but we are where we are , and no amount of handwringing or heart searching, or prosecuting this one or that, can alter what's happened, so all we can do is to try to do what we can with what we've got, hopefully for better (?!!) from the position we now find ourselves in.

The words of the two jihadists recruiting 'their brothers' to leave the UK and join IS is to my mind treason.

I am saddened that there is such a mistrust of a conservative government and our secret service that there is a consensous by so many people that they are implying they made up the intelligence that says there was a planned attack on British soil.

I personally find it unbelievable that any male or female who has joined IS or any other terrorist organisation can be treated with more respect and given more time and debate because they are British barbarians rather than face the fact/ discuss the fact we could have lost who knows how many lives if the failed terrorist attack had happened.

As for the fact they were British citizens well to my mind they chose to forgo that privilege as soon as they left the UK to join IS. They didn't want to be British did they, yet a piece of paper gives them the right to protection even if they want the destruction of Britain and are prepared to use any means to do so. Sorry being a British citizen is not a God given right to protection under certain circumstances and parliament must address that issue. It surely is not beyond the realms of sanity to make a law that can give legality to the state removing British citizenship from those deemed traitors to our country and I believe that applies to all know men and women fighting for IS.

The old saying damned if they do, damned if they don't has never been used so succinctly.

I imagine that you would arrest someone for treason and put them on trial, but when that person is in a hostile desperately dangerous country where arrest is quite impossible, and are blatantly threatening to murder a country's citizens and destroy its infrastructure, well, desperate times call for desperate measures, IMO.

Yes, it really is high time that a law was passed revoking the right to British citizenship for thse jihadis.We certainly don't want them to slip back into our country either.
I would imagine the intelligence on the men killed by the drone was good, they don't like to waste expensive equipment on nothing, and the British ones ( or any European ones) are worse to my mind than any others, having had a good life here, to go and plan evil acts over there and for Britain.

Roses

That's the word I couldn't think of 'revoke' their British citizenship.

POGS, not a case of more respect given to the two men. It's Cameron has now found a way to ignore the voice of parliment , this is the act of a dictator not a PM, he has brought back the death penalty and the death penalty without a trial . When Blair started his war on Iraq the Tories demanded proof be brought to the house , this is all that is being asked now

The foreign secretary said this morning the men had been plotting these attacks with terrorists in this country yet there has been no arrests, no one brought to court to face charges for being part of this plot , yet two men killed in Syria for the same alleged crime . This is why I question what Cameron claims is true . I now expect charges to be made but we will not know if they will be trumped up charges to support his claims . Why did he not inform his own cabinet, why did he not have a meeting with the leaders of the other parties ? The only person who was informed was the attorney General, a Tory MP and known as a yes man I would say the same if a labour or Lib PM had done this

I think the threads are getting a bit mixed up, something I posted on another one would be more relevant on here.
I can't copy and paste on this tab.