How will you vote in the EU referendum?

Pat Glass on freeview 131 talking about the EU.

janeainsworth

See my post on the 19th 00.15

'Ever Closer Union' has been enshrined in practically all, if not all, EU Treaty's since 1957.

I think some people think it is some kind of a new terminology but it is at the heart of all things connected to the European Union. Cameron has given the impression the UK can/will not be taking a role in 'Ever Closer Union' , some kind of opt out. The problem is Cameron has so many detractors such as Martin Schiltz, President of the European Parliament who has stated it would need 'Treaty Change'.

There is a strong calling for example for a 'European Army'. There are many who have a strong desire for a Federal Europe and they are very powerful people.

Martin Schultz not Schiltz.

POGS the link from dj yesterday at 22.20 gives the details of how long the 'Ever closer union' ideal has been part of the EEC/EU. Even Churchill made reference to it. I was quite shocked because you'd never know it from some of the posts on here from people who voted in the 70s.

I didn't read any further than Richard Corbett Wilma.

He is not on my list of people I consider to hold an impartial opinion on the matter of the European Union .. I knew the history of Ever Closer Union as it is a fact not an opinion so plenty of information out there.

We had spoken of Ever Closer Union in previous posts so to be fair I only saw the link mentioning Free Trade not Ever Closer Union so I didn't look.

'Ever Closer Union' is the pancea , the goal , the desire for a Federal Europe so many in the EU Parliament and Council aspire to achieve. The likes of Merkle, Junker and Tusk.. I believe it to be an utter mistake and if , as we are seeing already, the likes of the Schengan Agreement collapsing it will put on hold for a while the devoted attempt by some in the EU for total integration of our borders, economies and people. Someone or some country will end up as the dominant force, hmmm, and that way lies in authoritarian dictatorship rule and I don't agree with any country not deciding it's own destiny anyway.

I understand what you mean about Richard Corbett POGS, but I think the references he uses to demonstrate it has never only been about free trade are useful. I also think part of the recent agreement Cameron negotiated is important. He got agreement that members will not being forced into further integration or be disadvantaged by choosing not to integrate further.

I don't have a problem with a federal Europe as some posters on here. I am in favour because I believe it will help maintain peace.

I did actually say he was a Labour MEP, POGS, so some people might disagree with him.
However, I expected you to be open-minded enough to actually read what he said.
Never mind.
Every time the government announces some change in law or government, it says it's because it wants to be the best in the world.
That sounds like some country wanting to be the dominant force in my opinion.

I was surprised to hear that Giles Fraser wants out of the EU. It will be interesting to hear his reasons on Question Time.

Best argument I've read yet on the Bremain side. Not even a squeak about trade.

Yes that is a very good article Bags.
I was thinking about this whole business of sovereignty, self-determination and patriotism. I hear my French neighbours complaining about all sorts of things, but have never heard them talk about feelings that France is ruled by Brussels or that their "Frenchness" is somehow under threat from the EU,
From my experience of living here for ten years, I find that they are, of course, hugely patriotic and this is translated into a pride in all things French and a really strong emphasis on buying French goods to support the French economy. For example, in our hamlet of twelve houses only one car (not ours) is not French. Food in the shops advertises its Frenchness even though prices are often higher than the small selection of imported goods like New Zealand lamb.
I love the massive choice of foods from different countries on offer in the UK, but I do think the difference in attitude is interesting.

Excellent argument for staying, Bags

Patriotism doesn't just hinge on being a separate isolationist. People from Yorkshire, or Fife, or Cornwall, keep their pride in their own area despite being a part of the United Kingdom (still united and may it stay that way)
Buying local food, supporting local manufacturing whenever possible, cheering your own football team, is not suddenly forbidden.

We can be a part of a larger whole without losing identity, and exert a positive force within it and through it. If we leave, the EU and the millions of people in greater Europe would be poorer for the loss of our influence and experience, and so wouild we without our many links.

He is right, not all of it is about trade - though that is a big factor.

His points about the civilising influence on some countries of wanting to join the EU, and their backsliding when negotiations seemed to be slipping away, are interesting.

I agree entirely Elegran but there seems to be a theme in a lot of the "out" posts about people feeling that Britain and Britishness is somehow under threat from the EU and I was trying to understand why.

I wonder whether the same posters were for or against Scotland voting to leave the United Kingdom? It would be interesting to know.

Yes I do wonder about why people want to vote out of the EU to preserve Britishness, whilst risking that very thing.

Britishness is what you make it - if you keep your pride in being British and support all things British, and vote for MEPs who will support British traditions and standards within the EU, while also supporting EU measures to inprove the lot of all citizens of member states, then Britishness will not be lost.

If you copy the US in all things, from films to language, buy nothing but goods made in India or China, drive a German or Japanese car, spend your money holidaying in far-flung places, and condemn Britain now for mistakes made by Britons in the past, then you do more harm to Britishness than a thousand years of the EU.

I guess "Britishness" is a whole other thread, but tolerance, open-mindedness and a spirit of adventure would be important values and traditions for me. I heard a man on the telly the other day supporting Brexit and saying, "we are an island, we don't need anyone else". I don't think that exemplifies Britishness, either historically or currently.

bags thanks for that link. It reinforces my gut feeling that I want us to stay in Europe because it helps maintain peace (as I said in my last post).

Perhaps this is my insecurity, but I have often said I am so grateful I am part of a generation that didn't say goodbye to fathers, brothers and sons as they left to go fight a war.

I so agree with your last paragraph wilma
I liked Bags article too, but here's an opposite, also well written, article from the other side, which I'm posting out of interest rather than because I agree with it. I found his remarks about identity interesting.
www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/06/john-king-left-wing-case-leaving-eu

Thank you Bags - a really interesting link. We have a government run by the Eton group that is only interested in the movement of capital - not even a true Conservative party imo. They have persuaded so many that everything is about the cost not the value and this seems to have transferred to many of the wider public who are only looking at our remaining/leaving the EU from a cost basis - no principles involved. It's sad and again, imo, not the Britishness I hold dear.

I will vote to remain.

janeainsworth

The link you provided sums up a hell if a lot of points I have tried to raise. It is probably the best article that sums up my gut feelings.

Gracesgran have you read JA's link. I ask because there is a good view on the subject of the elite and the EU.

I have to say the link JA provided sits more in line to what I have heard from Messrs. Corbyn, McDonnell and Galloway whom I have watched many times on the likes of Russia Today and what I know of their history. I think that's why Corbyn does not have his heart in the matter of staying in the EU, it never has been his favoured stance , hence he has been known to be a Labour Eurosceptic for decades.

I understand your link thatbags which is more to do with continued peace for Europe but I also take into account the UK is a member of NATO. We are one of the ''big five' 'P5' . Alongside Russia, China, France and the USA. . We, the UK are only 1 of 5 countries who are 'Permanent Members of the Security Council ' in NATO. I think NATO has been the body that has /will give the UK it's security not necessarily the European Union although both are obviously ambassadors of peace between nations.

Kosovo is a reminder of how, if, when , not all European nations see eye to eye. As for Turkey and the Kurds I don't see the ratcheting up of aggression by Turkey on the Kurds is necessarily because of his want to join the European Union more to do with the Syrian conflict. The 'walls' that are going up between nation states in the EU over the refugee/migrant crisis is another telling story . Countries have unilaterally made decisions that they deem appropriate and if the European Parliament/Council elect to dictate 'borders' must come down to preserve the Schengan Agreement at all costs I warrentv here will be more trouble between bordering countries .

Yes, good article, janea. This sentence resonated especially: "The idea put across by its promoters, that the EU is somehow synonymous with
'Europe', is nonsense and yet this use of language has become commonplace."

Wilma, your point about not watching our men go to war is exactly how Pat Glass ended her speech in the debate in parliament yesterday.
Such a shame there were hardly any MPs to listen to it.