Anti Semitism in Labour Party and Universities.

Venus, The British police were, at that point, the legitimate police force. They had every right to seize files. One of my relatives was murdered. Please don't try to rewrite history or to justify murder. Irgun was a terrorist group.

The anti-Palestinian rhetoric by pro-Zionists is allowed to be aired without accusations of beng racist.

If, however, I point out that that the successive Zionist governments have waged both a 'quiet' and an aggressive war and an apartheid system to demean and undermine the Palestinian people, who had historic homes, families and a huge cultural infrastructure for 100s of years before the European Jews chose to make a home in the region, I am though racist?

The cutting off of utilities (water and electricity) to Gaza/West Bank, the building of a wall ,the apartheid travel/work/home owner rules, the siezing of land and building settlements on traditional Palestinian farms and land, burning of and uprooting of ancient olive groves all contribute to create a resistance movement. And that is without the aggressive attacks and massacres that have been perpetrated against Palestinians by Zionist governments..either directly or with covert support to other groups. Of course Hamas et al developed as resistance fighters... terroists to Israeli governments.

My father went to school and college in Jerusalem, he had friends of Jewish, Muslim and Christain backgrounds. He maintained friends of all religious backgrounds all his life, here in the UK, in Palestine/Israel and across the world. He just could not tolerate Zionists.

Like him I do not hate Jews but I abhor the Zionist vision to obliterate Palestine and her people.

Exactly, thanks.

I don't justify murder or rewrite history, daphnedill, just stating what happened. I very much regret that your relative was killed in this conflict. Hamas is a fundamentalist terrorist group, that uses human shields, suicide bombers, and puts there own people in suspect houses to be killed. No way are they 'resistance' fighters. They are the lowest of the low. It does a disservice to equate them with resistance fighters. Israel would never consider putting their own people at risk as Hamas does.

The Jews were in Israel long before the European Jews came there. In ancient times Arabs could be found in many places but they did not occupy the Holy Land in any significant number until after the time of Mohammad and the spread of Islam. A homeland for the Jews was offered under the Balfour Declararation. Ironically it was after Jewish business created a surplus of jobs that Arabs flooded into the territory in mass, creating a situation where Arabs greatly outnumbered the Jews. The British sold 75% of Palestine to the Arabs creating a new country called Trans-Jordan. I repeat 75% of what had been offered to the Jews was sold behind their backs to the Arabs instead! Not only were the Arabs offered a 'separate Palestinian state', long ago but they have been living in one since since the early 20th century. It's called Jordan, a country three times the size of what remained for the Jews. The Jews accepted this betrayal, only because they had no choice.

The Arabs not content with that wanted the remaining 25%. The UN voted to divide the remaining 25% between the Jews and Arabs. The Jews accepted the partition. The Arabs did not. After the partition, Israel declared independence May 14th 1948. A day later the Arabs waged war stating their goal was the complete extermination of Israel.

Unless the Arabs recognize the State of Israel and forgo their claims to wipe its people of the face of the earth, Israel will do everything to defend itself.

I would also add if it wasn't for Israel's Iron Dome missile defence system, which shields its people from Palestinian terrorists in Gaza, most of the country would be in ruins and many civilians killed. This was developed by the help of the Americans who believe, along with Israel, in a democratic society, unlike the Arab states.

By late October 2014, the Iron Dome system had intercepted over 1, 200 rockets aimed at Israel.

I guess Israel would look like Gaza

I disagree with you, Venus. The historiography of the British in Palestine shows that the Israeli government has heavily redacted some of the evidence. You have quite deliberately omitted the antics of Irgun (who carried out the bombing), Haganah and Lehi. At the time of the bombing, Palestine was in chaos. The British were supposed to be in control, but the Arabs and Jews were as bad as each other - and had been throughout the 1930s, WW2 and the immediate post-war period.

The British had been ordered to seize arms and information about the terrorist groups, which they had every right to do, just as any ruling power has the right to seize information about terrorist groups. In an attempt to destroy the information, Irgun blew up an hotel, which the British were using as its HQ, killing over 90 people in the process. They also killed many British personnel over a 20+ year period.

I'm sorry, but I don't need to have a 2000 year history of the region. The Romans were in control of Britain at the time, but I hardly think Italians have the right to repossess their country.

In any case, what does this have to do with anti-Semiticism in the Labour Party? (And don't try quoting Blair's friend, the very dodgy Lord Levy. ;-))

I disagree. British troops invaded the Jewish Agency on 29th June, 1946 and conficated large quantities of documents. At the same time, more then 2,500 Jews from all over Palestine were placed under arrest. The information about Jewish operations, including intelligence activities in Arab countries was taken to the King David Hotel.

A week later, news of massacre of 40 Jews in a progrom reminded the Jews of Palestine how British restrictive immigration policy had condemned thousands to death. Irgun leader, Menachem Begun, stressed his desire to avoid civilian casualities and three telephone calls were placed, one to the hotel, another to the French Consulate and a third to the Palestinian Post warning that explosives in the King David would soon be detonated. The hotel call was ignored. A British official said, 'We don't take orders from Jews.' As a result the casualties were high.

Regarding Lord Levy, I would like to know why you call him 'very dodgy?' He has been proved to be innocent of any wrong doing and is a great benefactor to a number of charities - including being a supporter of Israel. Is that what you object to, or the fact that he is a Jew?

Forgive me if this has been said already, but anti-Zionism is not necessarily anti-Semitism.
One can oppose the political acts of the state of Israel but not be anti-Semitic.
I get very annoyed when any criticism of e.g Israeli action in Gaza,military action against Palestinians and even atrocities are countered with accusations of anti-Semitism or even worse, of Holocaust denial.
I am not excusing it, but anti-Semitism has existed since the Middle Ages, if not before. I don't need to roll out the innumerable pogroms of Russia and Eastern Europe, the expulsion of the Jews from England in Shakespeare's time, the double standards of those who despised the Jews but borrowed vast riches from them because the Church forbade usury, the Dreyfus affair in France and the anti-Semitism of Victorian and Edwardian England.
To suggest anti-Semitism is a corollary of criticism of Israel is like saying criticism of an African or Asian nation equates to racism. Let's not muddy the water further. Honest political criticism of any foreign power can be freely expressed. Racist rhetoric is illegal and wrong. The former can't be suppressed by invoking accusations of the latter.

No, Venus, I don't object to the fact that he's a Jew, nor to his support of Israel. Why should I?

It is his support for Tony Blair I find somewhat dodgy. He declared that he would give up fund-raising for the Labour Party when Blair resigned. Therefore, I question whether his support was for Blair or the Labour Party itself. I am aware he was cleared of involvement in the 'cash for honours' scandal.

I don't think the Labour Party will care much if he resigns. He hasn't ever spoken in a House of Lords debate, so he's a waste of space really. It would also appear from people who know more about him than I do, that he dislikes Jeremy Corbyn and is behind some attempts to smear him.

www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/23/antisemitic-or-just-against-the-israeli-governments-oppressive-actions

jewsforjeremy.org/2015/09/25/british-jews-challenge-community-leaders-over-corbyn/

www.thejc.com/comment-and-debate/comment/153791/my-doubts-about-oxford-labour-antisemitism-claim

www.leftfutures.org/2016/03/labour-and-antisemitism-lets-keep-the-problem-in-perspective/

Anyone in any doubt about the left and the claim about anti- semitism please read the links immediately above this from Daphne.

POGS in particular -you will be relieved to know the information contained in them, and understand that the charges are spurious.

Let's put a stop this unpleasant thread.
Anti-semitism has no place on GN.

Most ordinary & good minded people would want to avoid a reoccurance of the horrific and actively constructed anti-semitism that created the holocaust. The western world is still full of guilt that it was too slow to respond to the rise of the facists and Nazi movement that was so catastrophic for Jews, gypsies,disabled,gays etc. This guilt is now carefully manipulated by the right wing Zionists to make it tough for any government/politician etc. to speak against Zionist policy as it is always equated with anti-semitism. Democracy should allow vocal and honest political opposition to be voiced and at the same time protect individuals and groups from abhorrent racist abuse:anti semitic,anti-Islamic etc etc.

I think this was what I meant when I said that political criticism must not be suppressed by accusations of anti-semitism, racism or indeed any "-ism"

The mass expulsion of the Jews occurred in the reign of Edward 1st in 1290, not Shakespeare's time, and remained in force for the whole of the middle ages. Oliver Cromwell allowed the Jews to return in 1657 in exchange for finance. The Jews down the ages have not just been treated badly worldwide, they have been brutally persecuted right down the ages, in just about every country in the world, some worse than others, up to and beyond WW2. History, for Jews has taught them that the only people who will defend them is them. If I lived in a country that was surrounded by people whose only aim was to murder every last one of my countrymen, I think I'd be a bit twitchy, and if the only way to stay safe, bearing in mind history, is to be ultra strong, then so be it.

Israel is the only demoncratic country in the Middle East, surrounded by hostile Arab nations. Why not discuss the need for fairness for its people in China, Iran, Libya, Korea, Rwanda, Syria, Vietnam, Zimbabwe, Russia, Pakistan, the list goes on and on? Why is there more discussion on Israel then any of these other countries? You may have misgivings about its policies but why single out? Is it because it has the audacity to protect its people against terrorist attacks and its in habitants are mainly Jewish? I think that anti-semitism is alive and kicking. Britain itself has much to be held account for, in the wars it conducts.

Apart from Vicki Kirby and Gerry Downing, there are many, many more like them. Gerry Downing has called upon Hamas and Isis for military force against Jews. These people are in the forefront of the Labour party. The Labour group in Oxford is another who have a problem with Jews and nasty anti semitism exists within the London School of Economics Labour club. It's pretty widespread!

Hamas, which is a Palestinian political entity vows to destroy the Jewish State and supports attack on Jewish civilians including rocket attacks, stabbings and murder. Anyone who supports this vile group is anti semitic. John McDowell, the shadow chancellor, is always prominent at banning anything Israeli and a friend of Downing. He even, on one occasion turned out to picket for him to get his job back.

It isn't only them of course. There are the academics who don't want their Israeli colleagues speaking here, citing the 'terrorist state' of Israel as a reason, but it's okay for academics coming here from places like Zimbabawe, Pakistan, Russia. Just Israel.

There is, indeed, a very thin line between being anti Zionist and anti semitic.

I'm afraid that is exactly the point Venus. You've completely hit the nail on the head. Why is it that we never see condemnation of other countries who are blatantly racist, tyrannical, murderous even to their own citizens? Zimbabwe being one of the most glaring! We never ever hear a peep of a protest. But 'wicked' Israel?!!! Very selective I'd say!!! Why there is this problem and pathological hatred of Jews is beyond me, I simply don't get it, and I'm not a Jew nor are any members of my family. I'm at a complete loss.

Israel denies the human rights of Palestinians and their right to self govern Not that democratic.
Israel only allows Jews to have full rights in Israel. Not totally democratic. I really abhor Zionism. I do not hate Jews though I might dislike some people who are Jewish..but not because they are Jewish. Got it yet Venus?

I do not hate Jews, I am against the treatment of Palastine , the horrors of the death camps doesn't cause me to hate Germans , the KKK is vile but I don't hate all American. The accusation of hate is a very weak defence sorry

A lot of countries violate human rights! No accusations against them?

No I haven't got it, Penstemmon and I object to your rudeness, which was even more offensive before your deletion.

The Palestinians have the right to vote, and their interest are looked after by a Palestinian council. Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish dominated state. There is no license to artificially change the demographic character of the country. Self determination in law is a foundation upon which to base human rights, it cannot be used to regate other human rights. The Jews have a collective right to self determination to form and maintain a specifically Jewish state, in which Jews must hold dominant demographic majority. The prime concern must be to maintain security and discourage socio-political disruption.

I have already stated in a previous post that the Palestinians were offered a separate Palestinan state long ago. I don't want to copy the whole post out again but please look on 4th post down.

Annibach, I merely state a fact that anti-semitism is on the rise in this country. There are figures to prove it. It is not a defence, it's fact. Why is there a sudden rise in this country? Because British Jewry is being held responsible for the politics of Israel. Something that British Jewry have no control over.

Nigglynellie, the topic is anti semitism

Venus all good and interesting posts from you.The problem is, some people on here don't like the link with the Labour Party and anti-Semitism!
Now, if it had been the Conservative Party.........

Niggleynellie was observing, that in general, following on from my post, that Israel is singled out more then most on the question of human rights. Why is that, I wonder?

Going back to the Palestinian question and their right of self government, I will put it simply. In 1948, the country was partioned off, but it wasn't enough for the Palestinians, they wanted more, and that was how the six day war came about, and, fortunately Israel won. Whatever they are given, it will never be enough. Their aim is to wipe the nation of Israel out of existence. Small wonder Israel is cautious of further negotiations!

rosearered, people may not like the link betweem the Labour Party and antisemitism. I don't care for it much either.

I have googled antisemitism in the Conservative party, but found nothing to support it. I rest my case.

The topic has also mentioned that Israel ostensibly denies the human rights of Palestinians, and I was pointing out that other countries also violate human rights, but for some curious reason these countries do not incur even a whisper of displeasure! How curious is that?!! Well as you say, roses, if you think about it, it is pretty obvious!!!!!