A thread for those who are voting OUT of the EU to make it fair

And yes, of course you can interpret things in a different way. I only gave my own thoughts on the subject. I'm saying what I think. From my point of view, the Remain campaign seems pessimistic because of all the doom it seems to think will happen if Brexit wins the vote (I don't actually think Brexit will win the vote).

I'm allowed to do that without being accused of making personal remarks.

I think you might be taking my mention of my gut feelings as personally directed at someone else, gg. It isn't. It's about me. I'm allowed to make personal remarks about me. I'm not aware that I've made them about anyone else. I certainly am very conscious of trying not to do that.

I forgot I had made my post of 16.33pm yesterday.

gg, no, that is not what I am saying.
I am saying that they way the EU is made up, the British only get to decide about 10% of the MEPS, but in a British parliament, it is 100% decided by Britain.

One of the issues I have struggled with for the Remain campaign is picturing exactly how things like stopping migration would work. We hear that they will "take back the borders" and I wonder what this really means? For example our border is currently at Calais where we work with the French to cope with the refugees and migrants arriving there.If we exit will the border come back to Dover and if so will we need to build camps to cope with the numbers arriving? I know they are talking mostly about stopping EU citizens coming here, but there are other problems.

But you were personal. As I say I don't think some people realise they are doing it and I was responding in the way I did because I could see you were trying to make a personal remark in an impersonal way.

You said you think "Remainers are pessimists". Is that a fact - obviously not; there will be all sorts of people on both sides. You have described a group you define as "remainers" knowing full well that quite a few people have said that is what they are so you know you are saying those people are pessimists.

I agree it can be difficult not to be personal but if you are you will upset people (I'm not upset by the way) and then those who have done this also get upset because the replies they get can be harsh.

A derogatory personal remark whether it is about a group or individual is a derogatory personal remark, just as "they" was to an identifiable group earlier. If you can identify members of the forum as being within that group they may be upset, they may complain, or they may come back with harsh remarks. I don't think anyone can then complain about unfairness when they have set the problem up for themselves.

Sorry that was to thatbags - had a phone call in the middle of typing

I am saying that they way the EU is made up, the British only get to decide about 10% of the MEPS, but in a British parliament, it is 100% decided by Britain.

But in the UK parliament each constituency only get to vote for one MP so a constituency votes for 1/650th of the parliament. Each country is treated like constituencies. Are you suggesting that the UK should have 100% of the vote for MEPs with no other country taking part; if not what would satisfy you?

On your logic I should be complaining that my vote does not decide my neighbouring constituencies MP in our parliament.

"Our border" with EU is also in other places. North sea ports, Southampton, Portsmouth, Fishguard, Holyhead, other ports big and small. All the international airports, through which EU passport holders can walk unaccosted.
And then there is the 499km long land border between NI and Eire.
If the French got huffy with us for Leaving, as well they might, the arrangement whereby they restrain asylum seekers and refugees in Calais etc might suddenly disappear. They could happily wave them onto ferries and let UK border control deal with them when they get to this shore.
Is it me or is Teresa May cowering in the girls toilet, thinking about all this, while the boys in her school have a nasty eye-gouging, ear biting fight in the corridors?

Gracesgran I'm sure I don't have to defend thatbags but she did say she THINKS remainers are pessimists. I read it as her expressing her opinion. On another thread it was stated that those who read the Telegraph are better educated than those who read tory papers. Would you consider that being personal?

sunseeker. The Telegraph survey looked at region, age, political party, education, class and newspaper readership and found all these factors influenced voting intention

"Remain" was most associated with living in Northern Ireland, being under 30, voting for the Green party, educated to graduate level and AB social class.

"Leave" was most associated with living in the East Midlands, aged over 60, voting for UKIP, educated only to GCSE level and DE social class.

But it found that "One of the biggest splits can be seen across newspaper readership" Readers of the Guardian were most likely to vote "Remain" whilst readers of the Express most likely to vote "Leave"

I totally accept that we are all different and very few of us will tick every box on our chosen side. I have voted "Remain" but only tick two out of six of the most likely to vote "remain" boxes. We will all come to our own conclusions for different reasons. Reporting the findings of this survey should not be seen as insulting anyone. It is a legitimate part of the debate.

Trisher it is the leavers who go on about "taking back our borders" surely, not remain. (I have a feeling that is what you meant)

If so I agree with you and I think that the leavers are going to be very disappointed. For instance the government of this country may decide we agree to freedom of movement anyway as a trade off for free trade within the remaining EU block. The "leavers" are not a party - nor could they be they are too disparate and have other UK interests (except for UKIP) so will not be able to design what leaving looks like.

How many of the members of GN were approached regarding this survey? It is well known a survey can be produce whatever result is wanted simply by choosing who completes it. How often have we read the results of a survey only to find it was financed by the company/organisation that is favoured by its result.

The Telegraph is a Tory paper. It is not being personal to suggest that readers of the Telegraph will tend to be better educated than readers of the Tory tabloids. That does not meant that every Telegraph reader is better educated than every reader of the Express only that there is an association.

Both the Times and the Sun are owned by Rupert Murdoch who wants us to leave the EU but the survey showed that the Times readers are less influenced than the readers of the Sun.

OMG sorry really senior moment! Of course I meant "Leave" oh dear do I need to check how my mind is? Now who is the Prime Minister? Who cares? Just TG it isn't Boris!!!
Any way "Leavers" please explain to me because I have yet to hear anyone say how it will work just that they will "Take back the Borders"

Gracesgran, no I am not saying that for the second time.

I dont think I can make my post any more clear than I already have.

So the Telegraph does a survey which says if you read a paper other than the Telegraph you are less educated.

Teresa May thinks she will emerge from the toilet, looking immaculate, and pretending that she always supported whichever side wins. Then while the boys are cleaning themselves up she will take over!

@sunseeker

Yes, that's right. The evidence is fairly objective.

Thanks sunseeker. Yours interpretation is what I meant. The "I think" part is important.

However, I understand gracesgran's concern and that it is possible from another point of view to misinterpret what I meant because of how I said it. So, since editing is not possible, here's the new version for gracesgran:

I regard a lot of the claims and projections of the Remain campaign as pessimistic. And it seems to me that the Brexit campaign is, by contrast, optimistic.

I think the problem with the Telegraph survey is that it is equating education with intelligence. I have a friend, left school at 15 no qualifications. We have had some of the most interesting and well thought out discussions. We don't always agree as he is somewhere to the left of Jeremy Corbyn whereas I tend to be in the middle vearing left or right depending on the subject. I have another friend, highly educated (he's worked on the NASA space programme) who I don't think should be allowed out alone. Now I am not saying that all educated people are unintelligent or that all uneducated people are, just trying to point out the danger of assumptions.

It would be clearer if you explained what you do want obieone. You have said you don't want us to be represented, along with the other countries in the EU, in a proportional way.

To me what you are saying is quite illogical but that doesn't mean it is illogical just that you have not explained in a way that I understand. You know what they say - if someone doesn't understand me it is because I have not explained in a way that they may.

I get that you want us to come out but complaining that we don't have 100% representation in the EU as we do in our own country (which is what you said) just does not make sense to me.

Thatbags everybody in the media just about says that the Brexit camp seems more optimistic generally, so yes, why not say it? In any case, pessimism is hardly an insult, nobody here would regard it as such surely ( you would have to be a very sad person to think so.)
posters who continually try and stifle conversation by suggesting ' that somebody may be offended' often mean themselves.

Onwards and upwards? Optimism for all!

thatbags, whatever you "think" and of course we all think what we do, if you say it on an open forum about an identifiable group and therefore identifiable people,and it is derogatory, you should expect them not to like it. That causes arguments. If you do not take account of offending people you should not complain and expect them not to have a say on a political forum because they have been angry that you have made - not just thought - personal remarks.

Sunseeker, nowhere does the Telegraph survey claim that their readers are more educated than readers of other papers. It merely demonstrates that less educated people people are more likely to vote to Leave and in spite of the fact that the Telegraph itself is a Leave supporting paper, its readers are less likely to vote Leave than the readers of the Express, Daily Mail or Sun.

Nor does this survey equate education with intelligence. We all know people like your left-leaning friend who seems pretty sharp. Intelligence as a factor has never even been raised by anyone on the Remain side of the argument.