A thread for those who are voting OUT of the EU to make it fair

Though I certainly don't agree with you when you took about EU officials being unelected. I always vote in the European elections and have had a lot of help from an MEP.

I don't know which way the person who said this is going to vote, but I think he sums things up very well with these two tweets:

"We should hang our heads in shame.
c.700 men, women and children drowned in the Med. this week.
When did we become so fucking useless"

"And now we get to choose between being in EU so inept it that lets that happen and a cretinous little Tory England
So excited by that choice"

I vote in European elections too, mamie, but there are too many people in the EU bureaucracy whom I can't kick out when I think the EU is going the wrong way, like now.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBo7Ug_1M8k

Well that is true of all bureaucracies thatbags. You should try living in France!

I think the point is, Mamie, that we don't live in France!!

OK kittylester you can't get rid of your British bureaucrats either.
Or the House of Lords for that matter.

I see the outs are following the traditions of the far right in separating themselves
Gracesgran I am not sure that you can assume that all people who may vote 'out' are far right.

I would like to know the real reasons why JC changed his mind after so many years of being against the EU.
Perhaps, by being truthful, he could persuade me because I am still floundering
(am I allowed on here or should I start my own thread for the undecided?)

See bureaucrats are by definition unelected. There are way more civil servants in the UK than in the EU.
Do people really want to live in a country run solely by elected officials? Sounds like a recipe for chaos to me.

Mamie, Synonymous's email talked about the European Council. This is where the leaders of each of the countries gather to set the political agenda. It is the Commission we send the MEPs to.

When saying the European Council is unelected I compare it to the House of Lords. If each region and area of the country elected mayors and they met reasonably frequently (but not too often) and comprised the upper house wouldn't this actually be more democratic than what we actually have in the UK. If we followed the EU model they would set the agenda - with their own area being each ones concern - and then the MPs (or MEPs in the EU) would put the legislation together and do the work required in the lower house, the Commons in the UK or the Commission in the EUs.

Actually that is not a bad idea - we would certainly be more democratic then we are currently if we followed the EU model

The very fact that there is so much which is not clear shouts "leave" to me! We should be the masters of our own destiny!
Churchill said, "Democracy is the worst of all government systems except for all the others"

It does not fill me with confidence in the EU when Claude Junkers who is expected to become the Commission President tomorrow when speaking on economic policy and democracy said,
"We all know what to do, we just don't know how to get re-elected after we've done it"
particularly in the light of what he said regarding Greece's economic meltdown in 2011,
" When it becomes serious, you have to lie"
and then on economic policy,
"I'm ready to be insulted as being insufficiently democratic, but I want to be serious .... I am for secret, dark debates"

Of course that is what he has said in public - so what was said in private?

the tunnel will be placed under French control. Its administrative capital will be in Paris and its President a Frenchman
So what's new? The Severn Bridges are owned by a French company, and, were I bothered to do any research, I would probably find other Great British Institutions owned by French (and many other foreign countries as mentioned in another post on another thread quoting Bill Bryson)!.

companies, not countries!

As I understand the rules, the commission (unelected) is the only body that can propose new laws. They draft them and put them before the Parliament (elected) and the council (unelected) for their comments. They can kick these out but the reality, as I understand it, is that most of it happens behind the scenes where countries jostle for position - "If you agree to stop fishing round your own coast, I will vote for your proposal to tax bananas (or whatever)"

Why is there a commission, a council and a parliament? Who agreed this? Where does the real power lie? - with the elected members, with business interests, or with the commission?

Still OUT for me and has been all the time - I'd like the future of our country to be decided and determined by us not most of Europe and I don't believe for one moment the scare stories about the economy or the bottom falling out of trade. What I do believe is an increasing threat to our security if we don't tighten up on our border control and have a sensible, workable immigration policy possibly like the one operated by Australia.

I'm not an 'outer' but wanted to answer your question.

The European Parliament is elected (as you say).

The European Council is also elected, as it is comprised of the leaders of the countries in the EU. It is, therefore, directly elected by all the people represented by the EU according to whatever voting sytem individual countries have.

The European Commission is the equivalent of the UK civil service. It does all the research and administration, but cannot make laws. It makes recommendations, which the elected Parliament and Council are free to reject. In the end, individual countries can also reject laws.

The European Commission has fewer people than the civil service, SPADs and unelected government ministers sitting in the Lords (unelected).

The commission is like the civil service and formulates laws. The council is formed by the leaders voted by us of the countries making up the EU. They decide whether the laws formulated by the commission is acceptable. If it is it eventually gets put to parliament composed by our meps who debate and decide.

From Corbyn's biographer, Jalima.

"I think what’s changed is he has so many issues on which he’s picking a fight with his fellow MPs, he’s so implacably opposed to things which his PLP (parliamentary Labour party) colleagues hold dear, that this isn’t one he feels strongly enough about to pick yet another fight over.

I think he’s seen, too, that the EU has potential to help in the causes he believes in. So in an interview over the weekend he was talking about using the EU to campaign for workers’ rights, worker solidarity.

I think he has moved on slightly from feeling that it was a trading-bloc which was hostile to workers, to seeing it as potentially something that would promote the values he believes in.

Maybe it’s that old saying of Napoleon: “Never interrupt your enemy when he is in the process of making a mistake”? Because the Tories have a majority and are in power for five years, but they could tear themselves apart, potentially, over Europe.

You are absolutely right. Europe has always been a bogey issue for the Conservative party, and I’m sure that any savvy leader of the Labour party thinks ‘why should I get intrude on private grief?’. So it’s much wiser for Corbyn to get out of the way, and let the Conservatives get on with fighting each other.

And how many Labour MPs, and Labour voters, when the referendum comes, might actually vote ‘out’?"

He sees the EU as better for workers rights than the UK.

Snap daph

The commission is not "unelected" Luckygirl They are elected by the country they come from. Why keep saying something that is obviously untrue; it doesn't help any argument. Let's do this step by step as you obviously don't understand.

1) The Commission is made up from one person from each of the countries.
2) It would be unelected if, like the House of Lords, it was drawn from the peerage and made up of Lords Spiritual(26 bishops in the established Church of England) and Lords Temporal (the majority are life peers who are appointed by the monarch on the advice of the Prime Minister, or on the advice of the House of Lords Appointments Commission)and including hereditary peers including four dukes.
3)The "person" is the democratically elected leader of each country therefore the members of the body are elected.

I really think the UK would be stretching the truth to breaking point to say it was unelected with our background on democracy - we haven't even got PR yet.

How is it that it's only those who want to remain that know all that?
Propaganda by the brexit group, thinking if they shout loudly enough that people will believe them?
It certainly works on here.

Its official Jeramy Corbyn stated on the lunchtime news that I'm not a little englander because of my concern with the level of immigration into this country.
Thank you soooo much, Jeramy, I can sleep easy now.

My OH is a dyed in the wool socialist and union man. He could no more vote other than labour than walk on the moon. But when Corbyn was spouting off about all the good the eu had done for the workers in this country he forgets all the good that unions and workers have done for better working conditions.

Donald Tusk - one of the Co presidents. - has said that the EU must get rid of the Utopian idea of ever closer union as so many countries do not want it and concentrate on the money/ banking side which of course would not affect the UK as Cameron did get agreement a couple of months ago that the UK would not be pressured to join the Euro.

Tusk and Junker have both said the same thing about the union so a federal union of states looks totally dead.

Having read these posts I find it difficult to understand how people can believe such rubbish as has been put on here without checking further. There have been so many discussions and programmes about this referendum over the last few weeks don't you think that such a plan or document would have been talked about - it would have made great ammunition for Boris and Nigel - why did they not use it - because it was a lie too far!
We were glad enough to welcome the immigrants from Poland - and surrounding countries depending where their borders were at the time - during and after the war when they did so much to help the allies. They have always fitted in to UK society and do speak English - or if not they make a huge effort to learn it. They integrate as much as they can too.
What will you do/feel about all the migrants Priti Patel has promised will have an open door to the UK if there is an out vote. The migrants from the EU have much more similar lives to those of the people of UK than people from far away. Already Boris is back tracking on 'there will be less migrants if there is an exit from the EU ' saying it will depend on the UK Govt - talk about passing the buck. I have no problem with migration as I think it is good for people to mix and live together - and the jobs they are doing - whatever their qualifications - are jobs many of the British people think they are too good to do themselves, so to say they are taking jobs from Brits is untrue.
At the moment the UK does not have a great number of good politicians who are fit for office - those of any party who could maybe fit the bill either do not wish for the role or are not elected to it by their peer group. With the schoolboy antics of many able to wield power I think it is better to have the rules they make tempered by more sensible politicians in Europe.

Thanks djen