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Article 50 of Lisbon Treaty

(102 Posts)
granjura Tue 28-Jun-16 18:01:24

We keep hearing about negotiations that have to take place in view of the Brexit vote. And it makes me wonder how many people have actually read it. The Treaty the UK has signed up to clearly states that an outgoing State will NOT have ANY right to negotiate anything:

4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

Ana Tue 28-Jun-16 18:05:39

I do think that most people (at least on here) knew that, granjura, but apparently David Cameron et al didn't...hmm

Badenkate Tue 28-Jun-16 18:19:27

To be fair, they have told us often enough

Devorgilla Tue 28-Jun-16 18:23:42

So if I read this right we wait the two years to exit and then negotiate with the markets we want to do trade with which could also be the EU. So why are we delaying serving Article 50 if all we want to do is exit and not bother with considering if we retain access to the EU market by talking to EU members now?

jinglbellsfrocks Tue 28-Jun-16 18:30:31

Why should we rush?

granjura Tue 28-Jun-16 18:49:03

Because as we wait investors are leaving, the £ continues to drop, businesses are planning their move elsewhere, etc, etc.

And because this is affecting the whole of Europe and to some extent the world. Uncertainty, doubt, are hugely damaging. And the more we make the rest of Europe wait and share the drop in markets and unrest- the less they will be inclined to be as positive as can be.

Tegan Tue 28-Jun-16 18:50:15

Because we now have to set up new markets and that takes a long time. We can't move forward till this has been done. We have no control of anything much for 'take back control' .

Badenkate Tue 28-Jun-16 18:57:23

I think it's a bit more complicated than that Devorgilla. When we activate Article 50 we also have to decide which model we want to adopt: Swiss, Norwegian - I think there are about 5. Once we have lit the touch paper, that's really when companies will start their contingency plans which they will already have drawn up, as to what action they are going to take. In all likelihood there will be another drop in value of the pound and share prices.

Badenkate Tue 28-Jun-16 18:59:09

I'miss sure we will all be relieved to know that Zimbabwe is happy to form a trading alliance with us smile

Badenkate Tue 28-Jun-16 18:59:55

I hate predictive text angry

MargaretX Tue 28-Jun-16 19:03:32

Th Uk can negotiate their aggreements and contracts, they will have to.

It means that when the members, the 27 states, are discussing alterations or improvements then the outgoing nation can no longer take part in these negotiations.

Today on Radio 4 I heard someone saying that now OUT they can start any business they want to. I live in a thriving part of Germany where there are 100s of businesses managed by normal people who did not have to ask the Eu Council for permission.
Some of them are top in he world list of exporters, so the EU doesn't stop anyone from trading with the rest of the world.
This man Farage is starting like Hiltler started. Untruth and Untruth Be careful!

Badenkate Tue 28-Jun-16 19:07:50

Exactly my fear MargaretX. He is no longer a joke, he is frightening.

jinglbellsfrocks Tue 28-Jun-16 19:14:16

It needs a cooling off period. There is nothing legally binding in the referendum vote. Put off invoking Clause 50. Who knows, maybe then it won't get invoked. Let it ride for a while.

Markets and economies fall and recover. Give it time.

Elegran Tue 28-Jun-16 19:18:21

We can't sign any new agreement with the EU until our old ones are ended, which won't happen instantly.

We can begin thinking about new agreements with non-EU couintries as soon as we want to, but they may very likely want to see what arrangements we come to with the EU before they jump into finalising the horse-trading we can offer to them, and what they are prepared to offer to us.

Trade agreements are not just about what tariffs will be imposed in either direction, they are about what size of market we can open up to a trading partner (a lot smaller once we are out of the EU - unless we can swing something good) in proportion to the size of market they can open up to us, and how much we need the deal against how much THEY need the deal.

We might find ourselves (as Switzerland did with one EU deal) being told "Yes, if you will let us sell in your country right away, we will let you sell in ours from 2020"

Elegran Tue 28-Jun-16 19:23:54

MargaretX I think the German exporting countries you refer to would be takiong advabntage of advantageous deals with other countries on the back of their position as part of the EU's agreements with those countries, which will have given entry INTO the EU market against the opportunity for exports OUT of the EU.

Elegran Tue 28-Jun-16 19:25:16

Sorry, I meant "German exporting companies" not "German exporting countries" Time I left the computer and did something else.

Devorgilla Tue 28-Jun-16 19:45:29

Thanks Badenkate. I didn't realise we had to state an actual model. Someone, probably Boris or Farage, mentioned a bespoke model for UK. Can't see that happening after today. Backroom diplomacy will no doubt triumph. From what I have heard on the news these trade deals take years to complete. We can't complete outside ones until after we leave. Nightmare. I think some people think it is like going into a shop, saying what you'd like and exchanging the good for money. If only it were that simple.

Iam64 Tue 28-Jun-16 19:57:53

News media's are reporting a large pro EU demonstration in London. Film of the protestors suggests this is a young,enthusiastic and very pro EU crowd.

CelticRose Tue 28-Jun-16 20:02:16

What we should remember is that until Art 50 is signed, we are still part of the EU. Art 50 can take years to be signed apparently - there is no deadline to do so once exit is declared. What politician is going to be brave enough to do this? They can just keep batting the ball back and forth. I, for one, look forward with anticipation to world trade - I wish I had 60 years in front of me instead of behind me!

JessM Tue 28-Jun-16 20:08:32

Jingles you are getting so sensible these days smile
It is all horrendously complicated this process of extraction and inevitably so because it is not in the interests of the EU to make it easy for countries to leave.
The whole bloody charade of the referendum is an unbelievable mess because the leave voters are a very wide range of things they think they have voted for. Including:
a return to the glorious days of the British Empire (just before India left maybe?)
sending all the immigrants home
sending all the EU immigrants home
sending all the black people home
being able to get a place at the school of their choice for their child
saving the NHS
staying in the common market without free movement of people
So most of them are going to be unhappy whatever deal is eventually struck.
The honest position by the new PM would be to say "I have no idea how to get us out of this without trashing our economy including massive job losses and enormous damage to public services."

Alea Tue 28-Jun-16 20:32:26

What absolutely p***es me off JessM though is how many people not only believed the litany of "outcomes " they thought they were voting for, but were encouraged in their delusions by the protagonists.
Like some we may know or have come across, they did not bother to look beyond the glib promises, did not bother to find out the facts, did not bother to listen to the various impartial (dare I use this term) constitutional or economic experts.
Mark Carney warned us, Mervyn King warned us but there's none so deaf .......
So now we have a sheer bloody mess which is going demean all of us, to cost all of us and impoverish us not merely financially but in every sense. angry

Jalima Tue 28-Jun-16 20:35:33

News media's are reporting a large pro EU demonstration in London. Film of the protestors suggests this is a young,enthusiastic and very pro EU crowd.
Do you think someone should let them know that the vote was last week?

Jalima Tue 28-Jun-16 20:45:55

granjura I think that is probably one of the valid reasons why Gordon Brown was reluctant to sign,

MaizieD Tue 28-Jun-16 20:46:19

What we should remember is that until Art 50 is signed, we are still part of the EU. Art 50 can take years to be signed apparently..

Not quite sure what you are saying here. Once Article 50 has been triggered (by our PM officially informing the EU that we wish to leave) there are 2 years for negotiations on the 'divorce'. Once the 2 years is up that's it; we're out.

Not to be confused with a lot of people saying that Article 50 might never be triggered. Which I think would leave us in a very hostile and impatient EU.

I think we either say 'Sorry, we didn't really mean it' or we get on with it.

Tegan Tue 28-Jun-16 20:47:39

Why so sneering Jalima?