Farage

lucycakeface I agree with you.

I often read the forums but rarely comment.

Having read all the comments on here that are extremely one sided, I don't think I'll be commenting any time soon and maybe I won't read the ones that just make me want to shout back either.

Your post seems a bit hysterical, jess. I have noticed this before.

Jess M the latter point in your post reads:-

"George Osborne has been inflicting major pain on poor people for the last few years, partly in the cause of retaining out AAA rating. That's out the window now for the foreseeable future. And why does that matter? Well all major capital investments will now be on hold as they rely on the government being credit worthy enough to borrow money on the international market. We are now a dodgy credit risk. And while you might not care about major capital projects they do create much needed employment - sometimes in areas where this is badly needed.
This is the sort of thing that all those so called "scare-mongers" and "experts" were predicting and they were right."

Whilst I ' do not argue your point ' re the UK now being downgraded it is worth noting we are now AA negative. Here is another list, which I appreciate ' can change on the spin of a coin ' but it is interesting when discussing the credit agency ratings.

Austria AA 1 negative Moody's
Belgium AA negative Fitch
Bosnia B stable S&p
China AA - negative S&p
Croatia AAnegative S&p
Cyprus BB- positive S&P
Czech Republic AA- stable S&S&P
European Union AAstable
Finland AA negative S&P
France AA negative S&p
Greece B- stable S&P
Hungary BB+stable S&P
India BBB-stable S&P
Ireland A stable Fitch
Italy BBB-stable S&p
Latvia A-stable S&P
Malta BBB+stable S&P
New Zealand AAstable S&P
Poland BBB+negative S&P
Portugal BB+stable S&P
Romania BBB-stable S&P
Russia BB+negative S&P
Spain BBB+stable S&P
UK AAnegative S&P
USA AA+stable

Obviously other countries in the EU at present hold on to AAA status such as Switzerland, Germany, Sweden. The UK now sits in the High Grade section no longer Prime.

The correct expression is ** angry rather than "hysterical" Bags - I would not have expected to experience misogynistic put downs on GN.
That's reassuring then POGS - perhaps you would like to list their per capita debt and fiscal deficit as well. I presume you saw how gutted Osborne looked the other day when he said he no longer had a chance of eliminating the deficit by his target date of 2020 (having failed to sort it out in the last 6 years). This means that our national debt will keep climbing rapidly until then, because we will not be paying enough taxes to start to pay anything off.
And his response - a huge cut to corporation tax. This is a desperate attempt to hang onto foreign owned companies and to help businesses survive the shock of Brexit. Whether it will be enough remains to be seen. But in the short term this will bring about a huge increase in the deficit. If Osborne (or whoever succeeds him) is getting 15% less in corporation tax we should all be braced. He has always been reluctant to put up income tax. But it is either that or more massive cuts to public expenditure. He'll probably choose the cuts in many areas. I pity the vulnerable and sick who will bear the brunt.
next.ft.com/content/d5aedda0-412e-11e6-9b66-0712b3873ae1
Before anyone flings any more sexist insults at me I'll leave you to keep convincing yourselves that everything will be fine.

I think it odd that someone who complains about George Osborne's austerity measures wants to remain in the EU. Even (even!) Juncker has delayed imposing austerity measures on Spain and Portugal because he disagrees with the idea. It's in the papers today that Germany is cross about this. What's the difference between those austerity measures and ours except that ours were imposed by our own government, not by another power.

You are mistaken, jess. I said hysterical because I meant hysterical. I would have said the same if a man had written what you wrote. I saw the anger too. Your way of expressing yourself has made me think hysterical before. Not often, but it has happened more than once. It's not a misogynistic opinion just because you don't like it. And it is just an opinion based on my reading. Since I'm so bad at reading between lines, and probably a racist to boot (in your eyes), you shouldn't be surprised I have such terrible opinions.

Now I'm off to find out if, like Greece's population, Spaniards and Portuguese are objecting to the austerity measures the EU wants to force on them. The action of the EU on Greece is what made me vote Leave. It was directly undemocratic. I am angry about that.

Apparently some Italian minister has said that the austerity measures designed for Spain and Portugal are "soulless". Probably because he fears Italy will be next. He may also actually think it.

I don't understand how the situation in other countries is relevant. The UK was in a much stronger position than any of the countries you mention and was/is in control of its own currency.

The important point is that the UK is highly likely to be poorer as a result of the referendum and the poorest are likely to bear the brunt of that.

I've always found JessM to be well informed and far from 'hysterical'. Amid all the stats and theoretical suppositions I'd like to put forward some direct practical information. I've personally come across 5 sets of people who have suffered direct negative effects of the brexit vote. These vary from jobs now under threat to cancelled house sales and problems trading with European countries. On a lesser scale my SiL and friends on a walking holiday in France were quite deliberately misdirected to their hostel by a distinctly dischuffed policeman the day the results were announced. I'm just one middle aged person with an average range of contacts. Imagine unhysterically how this may map across the whole UK.

And this old person with a good range if contacts has come across none of the above. I'm afraid I don't deal in hearsay *Jane" stick to facts.

I'm afraid I did did note a somewhat over-emotional tone to Jess's post but as that is becoming the norm on GN at the moment iet it pass.

I have too, on the whole, jane10. But that post directed at me last night and a small number of others over the years on GN have struck me as "a bit hysterical".

I'm well accustomed to evidence based practice anya and critical appraisal of research! My point was to illustrate that down on the ground where the people are, something is stirring. This sort of thing was glossed over and missed previously leading to the brexit vote.
You're very lucky that your range of contacts is so comfortably insulated from life

Really? Critical appraisal of research? You'd never have guessed! Yes, if course my range of contacts all live in a commune in the Welsh hills isolated from real life!
Get a grip girl.

JessM- you are not hysterical but so angry and disappointed, as many of us are. In fact, yesterday when Farage announced he was standing down- I was incandescent with rage- and so was my very calm and 'British upperlip' DH.

Typical Forum/internet tactic to very calmly put someone down with 'hsterical' or 'losing marbles' - but I know it won't work with you. Keep up the good work.

As for the 'get a grip girl' - contemptible.

Could you not modify your language thatbags? We can then leave yet another childish squabble behind.

How on earth conversations like this move us foreword is anyone's guess.

The world banks were betting on Brexit and made huge sums of money on it. It wasn't a surprise to financial manipulators outside of the UK. Our own government and Chancellor etc seem oblivious to the problems. The banks are running the world and if UK edit wasn't so biased and regulated we would know more.

Farage spoke for a lot of people who have concerns about immigration into a small country that is already feeling the pinch, we may not like him but that is democracy, we have to her from all opinions. Would you prefer that tensions built up to a civil war?

I don't think it was immigration that w on the day, plenty of people just looked at the last few decades and thought, we can do without this and especially at that cost. Immigration is a concern to me. Why bring all these people here, denuding their own countries of skilled people to shore up the NHS because our government is too tight t o train its own staff. Unskilled migrants were invited to come when no provision has been made for them and their futures. If you think that is a good way to treat people then you need to have a good look at your own imperialistic roots.

Germany has low birth rate and needs young blood to pay its pensioners. One minute the Germans were down at the station handing out bananas to incomers now they have the rise of the far right to cope with.

I am an old women. I have never known so many, modest income people to have staff as I know now. People have cleaners, gardeners, au pairs, nannies, car valeters etc.....we have inflated ourselves to middle classes by exploiting cheap labour from abroad. When did we get to be so well off?

Not forgetting the United Nations Charter which says that no indigenous people should have the state impose upon them anything that destroys their own culture. We are in the same situation as the American Indians, or Aborigines, without any consultation as to whether we wanted to live on a cramped island, with reducing wages and standard of living a lot of poor people were invited to join us here and share the very little that some of us have.

I am not a fan or Farage particularly but history will judge him as one of the bigger political characters of the century.

I prefer him to Blair any day. Without Blair and his ilk we wouldn't have such a refugee crisis.

If UKIP continue as Carswell said they would this morning, to claw back power from the state to the people, breaking the cartels like the banks and housing associations and family courts etc (where as a retired advocate I have seen many injustices) maybe we can get out country back on track......I know some people will miss that nice little Polish woman who does their cleaning. Tough. Those women need to be headed towards something nicer than skivvying after us. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Possibly, ww, but the language I used expressed what I thought pretty accurately. Especially since I felt it had been implied in the post that I was stupid and a racist. In fact, the original language I posted had been modified several times over!!

I'm not saying jess is hysterical. I said a particular post by her struck me as hysterical. Because it did, as well as pretty unpleasant towards me.

One of the EU beauracrats, I forget which one said, 'the biggest waste of EU money was your salary!' so true!!

Jess M 06.53

'That's alright then POGS'

If you post initially about the loss of our AAA rating why are you surprised if others respond. Do you expect to be 'heard' only,it doesn't work like that.

I also said "I do not argue your point". and I also said things can change on the spin of a coin.

@thatbags

I don't know how you have the nerve to deny that you were referring to more than one of Jess's post when you have written the following:

"Your post seems a bit hysterical, jess. I have noticed this before."

"Your way of expressing yourself has made me think hysterical before. Not often, but it has happened more than once."

Both posts imply that you think Jess has been 'hysterical' before and could be a habit.

radicalnan Very good post.

Farage is an embarrassment
My son lives in NZ and their news is like the Boris and Farage comedy show.
He says he is so glad he emigrated to get away from all the c*

dd, I agree with your assessment that those posts of mine that you quote give the impression that you say they give– that I've thought a few posts by jess "a bit hysterical". Of course they do. That was what I was intending to say and did say perfectly clearly. Where have I denied this? I was talking about posts, a few posts out of dozens, possibly hundreds since Gransnet began. I do not doubt that jess has found several of my posts annoying in some way, possibly even hysterical, over the years.

Where I've mentioned a single post I'm talking about the one from last night where jess appeared to me to be shouting at me and suggesting I am thick and racist. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

Yes, I agree. Good post, radical. I note that you are not a fan of Farage either and yet also don't think that talking about immigration rates is racist.

Some of the points in the ukip manifesto are already done in other countries. The points system that people keep saying is used in Australia, for instance. Is it racism there?

My daughter and I have both worked abroad, she in Sweden, me in Thailand. In both cases we had to have a job to go to. Neither of us felt this was in the least bit unreasonable.

Talking about immigration isn't racist, blaming immigrants for low wages and lack of amenities is.
Christophe Waltz- King Rat deserts sinking ship!
www.facebook.com/skynews/videos/1389123671102226/

Why? Why is saying that an influx of labour from wherever, including many who are prepared to take lower wages than people already living here, racist?

I'm not saying I think that idea, the one that claims that recent immigrant labour brings wages down, is true. It might be. I simply don't know. I'm saying I don't see it as racist.

Racism is nastiness towards other races of people. The idea above is about a supposed economic fact. If anyone has been nasty to people who are doing low paid jobs, then that is possibly racist (nasty at any rate, regardless of race), but that's not what the blaming thing is about. The blaming thing is about an influx of cheap labour. That entity, "inlfux of cheap labour", is not a person; it's a thing, a happening. If influxes of cheap labour disadvantage people already living and working in a place, it's government that's to blame and government that needs to do something about it. If anything can be done.

The essay I mentioned on another thread, The fate of empires and search for survival mentions the idea. Seems it has recurred throughout 3000 years of history as an economic fact, and one that has been part and parcel of empires' decline.