Could Labour 'split'. Tom Watson calls off talks.

Be was asked to leave the room fir them to discuss certain matters - don't forget he arrived armed with legal papers and threats of suing them. He was not asked to leave the room for the ballot, he had a vote so how could he leave the room? He objected to axe ret ballot simply because it wouldn't be known who voted against him .

If some one presented yoy with papers threatening you with high court action would you invite them to join you whilst you discussed their threat

I don't think he had an automatic right to know who supported his demand to be put on the leaders' ballot paper before constituency members knew what their rep's vote was.

Thanks, ab, for that useful info. Please keep us informed.

But how could you rely on your rep if it wasn't an open vote thatbags? I do know of people (and I'm not saying that would have happened) who would quite happily lie if it suited their purposes.

I was just thinking that representative government does depend to some extent on trust, trisher. If you don't trust your Party reps you're stuffed, aren't you?

'stuffed' is putting it politely.

If there's a lack of trust in the Labour Party it really is doomed.

Anniebach regardless of the argument about Corbyn I know you are strongly Labour and I wonder what you think about the Overton window and if it is currently moving to the left? It would seem obvious to me that it is and a proper left wing range of policies would see Labour moving ahead.

More worry on the way. Had email yesterday from labour HQ, voting for NEC to take place in August , so can we expect Momentum to start a second campaign of support. I had forgotten the August vote with everything else going on

Depends what you mean by moving to the left thatbags. People are rebelling against the greed of capitalism and there is need for socialism - as I know it- for me this is not the far left. I can understand the anger following the years of austerity , I share the anger. We had a move to the left in 1883 .

When Corbyn was elected I along with many blamed blairites for ganging up on him, what I did not allow for was the fact those MP's worked with him daily , they really knew him, I knew the man who made speeches at miners rallies , anti war rallies etc, I believed he was a socialist , I was wrong

It is normal to ask people who have a vested interest to absent themselves while an open and frank discussion takes place. Why he was worried about this I cannot fathom. He had friends and allies in that room who would give him a blow by blow account of the discussion.
trisher, if you cannot trust your reps to abide by their members' decision in a secret ballot then they need to be replaced by those you can. This was a smallish group of people and a very close vote. I am sure all sides were able to work out who voted for whom. It is of course difficult to know who is sending the texts, etc and no doubt there are people out there not friendly to Labour with time on their hands to cause havoc. I have personally heard though of local party officials being constantly harassed and being called all sorts of unspeakable things for following the rules as set out by Labour's NEC who approve the rules for such contests. This is not the Labour way, and I am sure that you, like all reasonable Labour people, just want a properly run leadership election according to the rules.
whitewave, wait a while before leaving the party. I too have my moments of despair but I will await the final outcome of this all before looking for a party to replace the one I have belonged to and voted for consistently. Labour is still our best hope for human rights.
I would love to believe that all the people joining the party really were committed Labour members who will give willingly of their time and money for the cause and who will consider all candidates on their merits in advance of the ballot but I fear a % won't even bother to read the pitches of the other candidates.
What we actually need is someone on the ballot untainted by the Iraq years and any other baggage who can inspire and bring us all together. It is sad that the many good things Blair and his administration did at home have gone by the board but history will rectify that.
The one thing I do know is that if JC wins the election and, as a result, many long serving, decent people are deselected and replaced by 'yes' people it will not be long before they are squabbling among themselves. There is always an ambitious young thing coming up behind you.

If the views expressed here are representative of the wider membership i.e. Lifelong Socialists who were delighted by Corbyn's election and are now disillusioned and dismayed by the intimidation, threats and failures of the leadership, it seems unlikely that Corbyn will be elected. Regrettably, the alternatives do not fill me with enthusiasm either, so heaven knows what the future of the party will be. I hope one day it will recover, but the future seems bleak.

We should support any system that puts people forward to be elected to office, I for one have got great faith in the labour party as an alternative to the Tories.

We just seen what happens when people feel as through they have no alternative put to use force.

Outofstep, no matter if many lifelong members do not vote for Corbyn, he is gathering support from the young, the evening of the NEC meeting he held a rally in the O2 arena packed with young people. Look at the many press photographs of him and he is surrounding by young people. Yes it's good when the young take an interesting in politics but I have had chats with many members of branches who had had a large increase in numbers of young members, they don't bother to turn up for meetings , fund raising etc, they only want to vote not discuss

Ah yes, the idealism of the young.

True Anya and the enjoyment of anarchy

Aye, that as well.

Point taken Anniebach I remember the naive enthusiastic activism of my youth. It was oh so simple then, no conflicting ideals or grey areas. I am still a feeble activist, but have acquired the cynicism and disillusionment of old age! Greater knowledge brings greater realism.

True Outofstep, in my teens I was prepared to save the world

Yup. Anniebach me too, I genuinely thought that all of my peace protests (& getting dragged off pavements by police) would make the world a more peaceful place, that's why I was thrilled that a pacifist would lead the party I've supported for 50 odd years. What hope is there for the world when a party with a pacifist at its helm are tearing itself apart with threats, bullying and intimidation?

Being quite ignorant of pacifism, are there different types of pacifists? Or is that impossible?

Gononsuch. I asked you upthread whether you are going to say anything against Corbyn. I dont think you answered that question.

I have to say I am heartened by a large number of sometimes life-long Labour supporters on gransnet feeling dismayed by the actions of the Labour Party leader.

obi I didn't think so, but I'm beginning to wonder, tho' I do remember some of the more militant ones from my youth, who thought that violent protest and blowing things up was the way to achieve their ends. But what do I know, I'm just a sad old fart who believes in peaceful conflict resolution, doesn't stop me mouthing off for what I believe in tho' (that was appalling grammar)

I thought you were dismayed by labour, obie, so nothing new to being dismayed by its leader.

voxpoliticalonline.com/2016/07/15/my-letter-to-labour-over-the-corruption-of-the-leadership-contest/

A bit of balance.