Social mobility and grammar schools

Apprenticeships don't need to be in factories. All sorts of organisations, such as accountants, garages, councils, hospitals, vets, etc etc take on apprentices. They usually train them to a Level 3 qualification. The trouble is that the system in the UK is very hit and miss and isn't properly regulated, so some employers just take on cheap labour.

The other problem is that the work has been outsourced to private companies. I went for an interview with one of these companies. My job would have been to go into schools and persuade school leavers to sign up, even though there weren't any apprenticeships. The company would then have a list when something came available - if it did. I thought it sounded like a bit of a scam and I don't think I sounded very positive, which is probably why I didn't get the job.

I know that, daphne, but I still think the fact that our manufacturing has declined dramatically has downgraded the idea of apprenticeships.
Granddaughter of a friend of mine has an apprenticeship in Specsavers stores. She was going to do A levels, then changed her mind. No idea about opthalmology, but is loving it now.

Daphne- not sure about proportions - but Switzerland specialises in Precision Engineering of many types- and in my specific area, quality watch making (top brands). So a lot of apprenticeships are based on the above (as well as all trades, including sales/clerks/carers, arts, etc, etc)- so plenty of 'factory' jobs- but only for highly qualified workers.

After or during apprenticeships, students can link up to academic qualifications, and go on to become Masters of their trade/skill or go on to Uni.

I think the profile of apprenticeships should be raised, sothat there are structured training and qualifications for almost every job, as there are in Germany. It really does show that even people in quite menial jobs know their stuff.

Havent read ft but I speak as one whose DD1 went to a selective state grammar school (82 schools in its catchment ).She wasn't tutored (we went through one set of past papers )but this is 20years ago and I know that that is now common .
Dd2 just as bright but not a academic went to our local excellent comprehensive
Both my daughters have First class degrees
I think the money should go into impriving standards in all schools as other posters are right It is easy for the better off to have their children tutored .It wont necesarily benefit them in the long run though as I think any child who has to be 'crammed' might struggle with the high standards and intellectual challenge of grammar schools .Or maybe they have changed ...

We saw in the GDR what the result was when everybody was treated the same. I'm getting fed up by people assuming that I don't care about the other children. I have given hours of my time helping school children with their English.

All I can say is that the Realschule does well and they are well looked after. They gain from being without so much competition and many move onwards and upwards later on, but for my two bright GDDs they would be bored stiff.
Then the country prospers and the other children benefit from it. That is why South Germany will stick to their grammar schools.

As to appreniceships. Apprentices are in the charge of their Master. the qualified man/women who has taken a course in training the apprentices- (Even ALDI and LIDL)

I have never heard on the BBC that people for this important work are being trained. You can't have one without the other.

MargaretX they are not "all treated the same".
Comprehensive schools have highly effective systems of setting and differentiation which cater for the needs of all abilities.

I wish company's would stop using the apprentiship when it's not, it's training. There's a difference. As someone who was indentured for 6 yrs I get a bit miffed every time I see or hear this.

This discussion had me wondering about the five or six year apprenticeships that some of my friends did. Technical drawing, engineering spring to mend. Given the prohibitive cost of nursing or social work degrees, for example, I wonder if there is scope for apprenticeships in that kind of work. I mean rigorous training, with high expectation and continued academic study. I don't know enough about nursing but I can imagine generic social work training over that period of time, starting with less complex practical tasks. A Diploma could be awarded on completion and effective academic challenges alongside reflective supervision essential.

Wow! I thought indentured apprenticeships were thing of the past. I still have my gt gt gt gt grandfather's half of his indenture.

There is no exclusive right to the word. In the UK, there's a difference between an apprenticeship and training, as you say. An apprenticeship is regulated for a start. I don't see why modern apprenticeships shouldn't use the word.

@Margaret

One outcome of the comprehensive schools in the former DDR was Angela Merkel.

daphnidill It was in the past in my case in the 60s, bookbinding. A lovely trade and I loved it. This thread led me to look up the trade and the pictures brought back many memories.

I've got one of those as well, daphne, my great great great grandfather's who was a cabinet maker.
I wonder how many more of us have.

Daphne WE all know that a school can be as bad as it is but if you have the right parents you can cope with any school. Her father was a vicar and he was in the West and decided for reasons best known to himself to move into the East.
She comes from a lovely country area far north, and somehow it was not as bad there, being on the edge of the GDR and I think her immense intelligence saw her through.
Someone like that with those parents would always make it. You can't judge the system by her.
Merkel is the name of her first husband who she studied with.

Mamie we were discussing the GDR. I don't even know if their schools were comprehenive. The term is English and in German they are called Gemeinschaft Schule, but I doubt if this was an East German name for a type of school. Before 1990?

Many years ago apprenticeships had to be paid for by the parents of the apprentice.
Some 'apprenticeships' these days (such as accountancy) require 'A' levels, give day release for the apprentice to obtain a degree, the firm trains and teaches well also and there is an opportunity to go on to become a chartered accountant (another two years after degree level).
In the meantime the apprentice earns a salary and has their fees paid for.

Unless, of course, they are an apprentice nurse these days, when they have to pay for the privilege of learning on the job, and working on the wards.
Why is nursing not considered the same as an apprenticeship?

I remember I knew a girl whose parents paid for an apprenticehsip to the best hairdesser in town. And she was lucky to be taken. She went on to have her own salon

Then a boy in the youth club. He went to be an accountant and now I see his name everywhere when I'm visiting. So nothing's changed. if you have parents with contacts you're OK.

That was my point durhamjen. That nurses and social workers (for example) need good practical and academic training, which the state should fund.

theconversation.com/obstacles-to-social-mobility-in-britain-date-back-to-the-victorian-education-system-57371

Over 100 years ago academics and MPs were astounded that the working classes wanted to be educated above their status.
Nothing much has changed in the system if we are still discussing bringing back grammar schools.

I agree djen
An updated system of in-hospital training combined with day release would ensure we are training enough nurses as in the old SRN/SEN system and i do realise that some grades require a degree or more. However, the SEN grade produced some wonderful, practical and caring nurses in my experience (as a patient)
I am not sure that accommodation is provided these days either.

I suppose even a smallish firm of accountants can afford to take on and train a couple of apprentices - but the apprentices do have to work for their salary.
However, surely the NHS would find it cost-effective in the end.

MargaretX I'm not sure that my MIL's parents had 'contacts' when they paid for her apprenticeship all those years ago, and certainly the two young apprentices I know have managed without parental networking although I know it goes on in some circles.

www.politics.co.uk/opinion-formers/ciob-chartered-institute-of-building/article/ciob-launches-call-for-evidence-as-part-of-government-led-ho

This should get more apprenticeships, providing they follow up on the talking shop.