Social mobility and grammar schools

I agree with daphnedill in her post at 7.30am yesterday- very sensible.

I think it is time to stop harking back to the days when an apprenticeship was something very different to today.
Today we have "modern apprenticeships" and they are very different.
As to nursing. Qualified nurses these days do a much wider range of tasks and carry out more complex tasks, than nurses did 50 years ago. The profile of patients in hospital is different too. A much higher proportion of patients are very ill and/or very dependent. Most of us can remember the days when someone would have a minor operation and be in hospital for a week. These days you might be there 24 hours, or less. There is no role now for an SEN nurse who can only do 70% of the tasks needed. The bed making and handing out food role that was included in nursing years ago is now done by Ward Assistants etc.
The increased complexity was one of the reasons why the nursing profession pushed for nursing to become a graduate profession.

Jess is right about the move to a graduate profession and the reasons for that. My suggestion earlier about apprenticeships for social workers and nurses (for example) wasn't mean to criticise their current degree status. It was prompted by the fact that people who qualify for a degree/masters in those subjects are never going to earn enough to justify the expense of their training. SW used to have their training funded by local authorities with the expectation they would return as qualified sw and work for a minimum of two years for the authority. I can foresee the existing shortage of qualified sw, nurses, teachers getting much worse because of the expectation that they pay huge amounts for their training in professions where they will not earn the kind of salaries that say doctors/accountants do.

It's a concern that the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills has been replaced by the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy. Modern apprenticeships are mainly funded by the EU and there is no guarantee that the funding will be replaced.

The UK was beginning to do some positive work with apprenticeships and everything is now uncertain. I fear that the emphasis on skills might be lost. This should be a long term strategy, not one which changes every few years at the whim of current politicians.

You don't have to foresee it, Iam64. It's already happening .

IMHO something as vital as training should not be funded by European money. We should be raising a training levy from industry.

Ward assistants do not work for the hospital. They are usually paid minimum wage and work for companies like Sodexo or Compass. There is nothing like the same loyalty or pride that an SEN had.

Employers do pay a levy, but it's matched by the EU. The fear is that the government won't have the same commitment to spending money on training as the EU does.

feweek.co.uk/2016/06/17/my-brexit-fears-for-apprenticeships/

Big companies traditionally play a big role in providing training programmes, but they won't do it for free.

I think Jess meant healthcare assistants, who are employed directly by hospitals. There is an apprenticeship scheme for them. They can then go on to work for a GP practice, a company or whoever once they've qualified.

Ward assistants have nothing to do with patient care. I've just looked at a couple of my local hospitals and they have vacancies for directly employed ward assistants, admittedly at just above minimum wage, but they will have holiday, sickness and maternity pay, a pension scheme and opportunities for further training.

Agencies are filling in the gaps, because hospitals are struggling with their budgets to employ permanent staff.

Sorry daphne I meant a statutory levy.

There is going to be, although only big employers will pay it.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/apprenticeship-levy/apprenticeship-levy

There still needs to be extra funding, because it's not only big employers who will benefit.

My son went to a talk by the one of the big names in Nissan. Nissan is spending some of its money plus grants from the government and EU on training. The vision was to create an engineering hot spot in the North East. Small employers benefit from the Nissan training, but they shouldn't have to be providing it all.

When a whole industry goes, as with steel, finance for training for new skills needs to come from government. The UK is light years behind countries such as Germany. The fear is that the UK doesn't have a long-term strategy and isn't committed to financing. The UK just doesn't seem to realise that if it wants to be a first-class, forward thinking economy, it needs to invest in skills.

Whether money comes from the EU or government doesn't matter. The point is that the money is needed and the British government seems to have other priorities (mainly concerned with winning votes). One advantage of an EU apprenticeship is that it's valid throughout the EU, so a British trained worker would have the option of moving to a higher paying EU country.

nhap.org/down-skilling-staff-is-part-of-the-privatisation-agenda/

@dj

Yes, I know that's happening. It's been happening in schools for years.

The NHS spends a fortune on training staff, but many of them don't stay, so the NHS doesn't benefit, or the service is outsourced to private providers, who don't spend money on training. That's partly why nursing degrees are no longer financed by the NHS.

The compulsory levy is a way of getting some of the big /health anciliary providers to pay. However, you can bet anything that they'll find some way of squirming out of it. An organisation acting only as an employment agency won't have to pay, as far as I can see.

However, there are still some healthcare and ward assistant jobs provided by hospitals. It actually seems unfair that the NHS has to pay for the training, while agencies will profit. Presumably people will have to fund their own training when the NHS disappears.

I remember listening to somebody years ago (sorry, can't remember which company - it could have been M&S) claiming that 15-20% of company turnover should be spent on training and upskilling. I bet they don't spend anywhere near that amount now.

Um, I don't think you mean "turnover" Daphnedil... That would be all the money that goes through their books in a year!
Sorry got muddled about the job titles. However don't ward assistants give out food to patients? Interesting to hear that some Trusts don't employ directly durhamjen.

Ooops! You're right. I was in a hurry when I wrote that post. It was a long time ago, but I do remember the 15-20% figure - it might have been staff costs. Whatever it was, I remember thinking it seemed a high figure.

Healthcare assistants hand out food...

www.cuh.org.uk/corporate-information/working-for-us/healthcare-support-workers/what-will-i-do/healthcare-assistants

I'm not an expert on NHS roles, but I think ward assistants do filing and make sure there enough bandages, etc.

Jalima -Germany is crammed full of apprentices who manage without parents' contacts. We were discussing the GDR and the time when I left school. Contacts definitely helped then.
And they do now, if the truth be known.

Somehow you always misunderstand me. If I say something negative you assume that is my view or opinion. I see what is wrong with the system and mention it but do not condone it.
It could be that that is the German way of discussion. facing facts!

Teresa May has now apparently stated her intention to "bring back grammar schools". Why is the announcement not worded as "bring back secondary moderns?" Yet another woeful example of simplistic populism.

*MargaretX

Somehow you always misunderstand me.
Well, not intentionally or unkindly I hope! and as I don't very often comment on your posts I am

but when you say:
nothing's changed. if you have parents with contacts you're OK.
I just pointed out that some people manage to get apprenticeships without parents who network and always have done.
Although I do know parents who did network their associates to try help their DC though.

Margaret I do remember when Emilia Fox said how difficult it is to get into acting if you have parents in the profession - it is a real handicap!

Really Emilia? - not half as difficult as the many extremely talented unknowns from ordinary and even poor backgrounds whose parents do not have contacts in the business or a cushion of wealth for the aspiring actor to fall back on.
The same seems to happen in politics where nepotism seems to rule - in the UK at least.

I do actually wonder how much difference they would actually make. The ones where my DD lives have a lot of children who go to independent prep schools which cram for the 11+. As I said upthread, some children in my GD's primary school have three years of private tuition.
The local secondary schools all do very well and send a lot of children on to university.
The proportion of children on Free School Meals that get into grammar school is tiny so not sure they help social mobility.
I think it is all wrong, would be a dreadful waste of money and would be horrified to see more of them, but I don't think good comprehensives will necessarily have much to fear.

We have no grammer schools in Wales, hope it stays this way, depends on which party has the majority in the assembly, if it stays labour we are safe

Get the politics out of education - every child needs the best there is regardless of where it comes from or how much. How comes people care so much about education that no-one in my living memory (and as a teacher) has ever protested about the size of classes in most schools. Is it because it's easier to join the national band-wagon of mono-thought.

As far is Private Tuition goes - it's not privileged or glamourous its usually a measly £20 per week for an hour of extra tuition. ( I used to provide the service).

I think these left wing nazis should stop hating people who work hard and want the best for their children.

£20 a week may be a measly sum to you Sarah, not to parents on the minimum wage, zero hour contracts , unemployment benefit , disability benefit or paying high rent

Being poor does not mean not working hard or not wanting the best for their children

We are very fortunate with the teaching staff at our comprehensive , they work lunch hour and after work for not a penny, not all teachers are money grabbers , they care for the children not grabbing a measly £20

Wanting fairness for ALL children has nothing to do with being left wing , it comes naturally to many