LibDems win Council seat in Sheffield

So which is better, voting for Labour all the time regardless of where they lead you, or having principles and sticking to them and voting accordingly?

www.opendemocracy.net/uk/alex-goodman/hijack-or-mutiny-labour-leadership-and-left

Interesting stuff in here about the Blair era.

My own view is that people who have identified themselves as Conservatives are unlikely to have the Labour Party's best interests at heart.

Looking at the state of the country at the moment - with private ambulance companies going bust and warnings that, because of a decrease in staffing and funding, the ambulance and fire services are increasingly unable to respond to call-outs in a timely manner; the MS Society warning that benefit changes "will hit 10,000 people with MS"; swingeing cuts to the social care budget leaving many elderly people alone and helpless because their support has been withdrawn; a third of councils cutting or doing away with the Meals on Wheels service; the NHS so under-staffed and under-funded that it may well be unable to cope this winter ........ and so the list goes on ...... perhaps those that are so keen to join in the Corbyn-bashing and label those who support him as "trots" and "militants" would like to explain why they believe the previous coalition and the current government have done such a great job. If anything could be described as "militant" I believe it is the relentless undermining and gradual dismantling of our public services and support systems.

having principles and sticking to them whilst people sleep on the streets, children go hungry, people die of cold in winter, loss of the NHS?

now I understand your devotion to and obsession with Corbyn , Corbyn loses the next election , Tories get back in, more on the streets, more hungry, more children in poverty, no NHS but Jen and Jeremy still have a roof over their heads and their principles

Eleothan, Labour did not form the last two governments

NO Anniebach but Labour failed to supply an alternative with real anti-austerity principles. The problem is not that Labour need to shift to the right but that they have failed to provide real alternatives. The Conservatives have cleverly spun themselves as a party that believes in social equality, only as their real policies bite do people realise their real intentions. Meantime the Labour party tears itself to bits and won't even consider working together. I listened to Owen Smith and Jeremy Corbyn and only Corbyn recognised that unity was needed. You won't even consider accepting Corbyn. No wonder ordinary people are beginning to think the Liberals weren't too bad!

Trisher, .Corbyn claimed unity was needed then produced the list accusing MP's of
Abusing him . Sat in silence whilst a lsbour MP was verbally abused , that's his unity

Thank you dj, Eloethan, trisher and any others who are putting forward sound arguments and excellent links for those of us like me with not much time at the moment. I admire your tenacity in the face of such hostility. Annie do you have nothing else to say about labour or Corbyn? Your arguments are exactly the same as they were on page one of this and any other similar thread. At least answer some of the points being raised.

nightowl, I will put forward what I wish

Have given the question of principles much thought. Are my principles more important to me than the suffering of others ? No .

People are not suffering because of Corbyn's principles.
It wasn't Corbyn who lost the last two elections, although I am sure you would blame that on him if you thought you could get away with it.

Like nightowl says, your Corbyn-bashing has not changed ever since you thought you personally had been misled by him.

Can you tell me which of Corbyn's principles you disagree with?

The reason Smith always has a go at Corbyn personally is because he cannot disagree with his principles. So he attacks the man.
If the Labour Party had managed to find someone who was leadership material and would help to get the party back into power and stick to his principles, I am sure some of Corbyn's supporters would vote for him or her, but they haven't.

Everyone agrees that Corbyn won the argument over grammar schools. It's only because of Corbyn's persistence that some Tory welfare reforms have been watered down.
Corbyn might be able to save the NHS, providing all the anti-Corbyn MPs get behind him.
I find Eloethan's list scary, and that's just the start of what's wrong.
I think it's time you stopped your anti-Corbyn rants and started telling us what you believe in, Annie.

jen I am not Corbyn bashing, I am criticising Corbyn, as you are constantly drooling over him.

Winning an argument over grammer schools is no damn use if the Tories can still bring them in.

How many times must I repeat this, Corbyn cannot win a general election If labour is not in power sod all can be done . No use spouting about your principles and criticing MP's for sticking with theirs, that is so hypocritical Jen.

You are obsessed with the man to such a degree I feel uncomfortable . Your constant excuses when he makes mistakes, your defence of the train lie is pathetic , there were seats, he tried to make a point and got caught out ,the country mocked.

I do not support Smith, he is no more a leader than Corbyn

Fact , a stronger candidate could not win this leadership contest ,because of Momentum. I wish Smith could win, the party would heal.

You have not condemned the threats of rape made to women MP's , neither has Corbyn, his first answer when asked about the threats was - I have been threatened too.

he took a holiday during the Brexit campaign, refused to take part in tv debates, your defence was how many towns he visited. How many more people could he have reached out to on tv? Your excuse was - he wouldn't appear with Cameron, pathetic excuse, he appeared in the house every week at PMQ.

Your knowledge of the militant movement in this country is very limited , to claim the majority was in Liverpool is rubbish .

Corbyn cannot save the NHS because he will never be in power , every vote for Corbyn is a vote for the Tories l

You believe former leaders of the party have no socislist values , again rubbish .

You are obsessed with this man as do many women who swarm around him seem to be.

I support the lsbour party not a politician who is no more than an aging hippie who is more concerned with politics of the eighties than today. He is willing to remain leader and destroy the party and you support him .

Gordon Brown would have won the leadership contest if he had stood against Blair, he put the party first. This is what I want from a leader, someone who knows Labour can only bring in socialist values IF THEY ARE IN POWER.

You carry on with your defence of this weak man , I will carry on criticising him

A vote for Corbyn is a vote for the Tories
You have said you never voted for Blairs government, I did, we are both pacifists, I marched against war in Iraq but still voted for the Labour Party, we are both against nuclear warfare , you believe Corbyn can bring in unilateral disarmament , I do not, the country will not vote for it. Just as the country will not vote for Corbyn.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/17/jeremy-corbyn-should-be-tougher-not-my-style

An excellent article about Corbyn's first year.

What is your knowledge of Militant, then?

Well I will agree he loves acting , we saw it on the train. His wife brings a pot of home made jam to the cafe whilst he is being interviewed by a newspaper , coincidence I suppose ?

My knowledge of militants is far more than yours Jen , you think the majority were in Liverpool

So tell me, then, as you know so much. There were 8000 members at the most.
Are you really scared of 8000 people?

Sorry, but your anti-Corbyn rants are getting pathetic now.
What's wrong with his wife taking a pot of jam to one of Corbyn's team? She was going there anyway.

You haven't picked up on the fact that he doesn't like the acting that goes on in PMQs, he wants to represent the people that voted for him there, not just be personal about May.
Personally, I prefer his style to yours.

Jen, the jam was no different to Cameron hugging a husky , you are gullible

Cameron was only pretending to be environmentally friendly, though. Corbyn really is, another thing I like about him.
If that makes me gullible, that's okay. Me and half a million others.
Our gullibility beats your cynicism, thank heaven.

Well, you and half a million others carry on being gullible and destroy the Labour Party, leave the homeless , disabled, poor at the mercy of the Tories .

How will Owen Smith help the homeless, disabled and poor any more than Corbyn?
In fact Smith abstained on the welfare bill. If he and other labour MPs had voted with Corbyn, it could have been defeated.
If Labour MPs had voted for the reinstatement of the NHS bill, it would have won.
So don't give me any crap about Corbyn leaving the homeless, disabled and poor at the mercy of the Tories.

Jen, I will not continue to feed your need to obsess about Corbyn , your language is getting course, your aggression is troubling, I will admit you have helped me understand the power of momentum on the gullible, you really are obsessed by this man, try a poster of him on you bedroom wall

That does not answer my last point.
How did Owen Smith vote on the welfare bill and the NHS reinstatement bill?
He abstained. Not good enough for someone who is supposed to support Corbyn's ideals, if not Corbyn himself.
How can you support someone who did that?
How does Owen Smith show there that he can help the poor, the disabled and the homeless?

By the way, traingate increased Corbyn's popularity.
Perhaps Owen Smith should try something similar, instead of making misogynistic comments.

If Traingate increased Corbyn's popularity, it shows exactly the calibre of the idiots
Mindsets of rebellious anti everything people/youngsters who surround him.

Nice one * roses* Some people walk straight into it, don't they.