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Brexit and power to the people

(437 Posts)
whitewave Fri 14-Oct-16 08:18:55

Really interesting court case and day 1 of "The Royal Prerogative"

It basically boils down to whether a minister -in this case Amino 1 - can remove rights established by an act of parliament.

It raises questions of "fundamental constitutional importance about the limits of the power of the executive"

Pannick, QC for the challenger, said " this court is not concerned with the political wisdom of withdrawal" "The government was wrong to suggest the legal challenge was merely camouflage to prevent Brexit"

Pannick's client the court was advised had again received threats, abuse and insults.

A further QC - representing the people
Argued" the constitution of our parliamentary democracy, unwritten as it is , is predicated on the sovereignty of parliament and the courts working as arbiter. Notification of withdrawal leads to the removal of the rights of UK citizens.
Chambers QC argued that the referendum did not replace the UK system of parliamentary democracy"
If the government triggered A50 it would be setting itself up as "de facto legislature"
This is a case about what is legally required, not what is legally expedient.

Good ain't it?

durhamjen Mon 05-Dec-16 15:12:07

It's hard to follow, whitewave. Do you think that's because we don't have a proper constitution and therefore have to rely on case law all the time?
That'a obviously why there is so much paperwork in front of them all.

whitewave Mon 05-Dec-16 15:32:30

Most certainly dj All based on case law. I haven't had time to sit and listen to it since 11am, so have missed some of the argument, would like to see a good short version.

Personally I am hoping that this case brings an understanding that the prerogative powers are indeed a left over from history, and should be even further limited.

durhamjen Mon 05-Dec-16 16:10:00

I agree. A good short version is needed.
I think the JackofKent blog will probably have that.

And why is there only one female Justice?

whitewave Mon 05-Dec-16 18:48:06

Glass ceiling?

durhamjen Mon 05-Dec-16 20:26:20

A comparison between UK and US on how they are chosen.

fullfact.org/law/how-supreme-court-judges-are-chosen/

You'd think the queen could ask for more women.

JessM Tue 06-Dec-16 10:38:27

Yup, presumably only one female judge has risen to these illustrious heights. We all know how the US appoints its supreme court (if we've ever watched a US political drama that is).
Oh lordy, it's a palaver! But basically panel of judges recommends to PM and queen rubber stamps.

whitewave Tue 06-Dec-16 11:41:39

Do hope the bullying by the right wing press make no difference. I am sure the judges will take no notice but the readers may be swayed by these tactics

Ana Tue 06-Dec-16 11:48:42

Yes, those pesky DM readers - you'd think they'd know their place by now!

After all if it hadn't been for the likes of them voting 'the wrong way' we wouldn't be going through this farcical performance now, would we? wink

whitewave Tue 06-Dec-16 12:11:09

I think the governments case is going to be lost on the domestic issue as we were querying yesterday.

ana nothing to do with the way people vote. It's about the constitution and the rule of law. The trouble with the Daily Rag is that it doesn't respect the rule of law -well at least not when it suited it. Note the "enemy of the people" headline. Quite disgusting.

Ana Tue 06-Dec-16 12:17:44

Well I still can't see how hordes of enraged red-top readers are going to affect the Court case and the result, and we've discussed that headline already.

whitewave Tue 06-Dec-16 12:57:56

Yes I agree they won't but that doesn't mean that the DM isn't doing its damnest to undermine the rule of law by influencing its readers..

whitewave Tue 06-Dec-16 14:15:35

Lord Pannick will be worth watching - good at his trade.

whitewave Tue 06-Dec-16 14:53:39

1972 Act -has constitutional status and has been subsumed within U.K. Domestic law, and created rights and duties.

Argument that when this law was enacted Parliament had no intention at the time that this law could be set aside by a minister.

whitewave Tue 06-Dec-16 15:27:18

Pannick now expanding 7 points supporting the above argument. Looking at various cases.

whitewave Tue 06-Dec-16 15:30:44

RP cannot be used to take away the rights of a British citizen.

whitewave Tue 06-Dec-16 15:42:58

Question

Has parliament bestowed the powers to a particular minister to take away whole statutes?

Argument is that here has never been conferred such powers by parliament to the executive.

JessM Tue 06-Dec-16 17:11:22

Today's flurry involves Msr Barnier (?) chief negotiator talking tough - no cherry picking and after Article 50 there will be a mere 18 months to negotiate, leaving 6 months for the other nations to discuss and ratify.
And in the red, white and blue corner PM and Johnson saying that they are going to get a great deal for Britain.
Sigh.

durhamjen Tue 06-Dec-16 17:23:22

However, May has said she agrees to the Labour bill tomorrow, but will just add a bit about the date.
Would that have happened if it hadn't been for this court case?
Do you think she has been advised that she will lose?

durhamjen Tue 06-Dec-16 18:21:54

I hope this is wrong.

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/12/06/the-article-50-case-makes-clear-how-urgently-the-uk-needs-a-written-constitution/

whitewave Tue 06-Dec-16 20:40:55

I thought a couple of things the Government QC sounded like a threat to the judges. Not a good way to proceed I would have thought.

whitewave Tue 06-Dec-16 21:02:32

It is important that our judiciary cannot and are not intimidated by politicians or supporters of politicians like the media.

To do so threatens the very foundation if our constitution and rule of law, which states that All are equal under the law.

durhamjen Tue 06-Dec-16 21:21:16

The only Magna Carta clause left which applies to everyone.

whitewave Tue 06-Dec-16 21:24:31

I do think a written constitution might be no bad thing, even if it's only a broad brush stroke type of thing.

durhamjen Tue 06-Dec-16 21:39:00

I agree. But we want the judges to write it, not the government.
Can you imagine what a mess the justice secretary would make of it? She was talking about dogs barking to disrupt drugs drops outside prisons today!

durhamjen Tue 06-Dec-16 21:41:52

Theresa May was in Bahrain when she talked about the red, white and blue Brexit.
Bahrain's flag is red and white.
A sad Bahrain flag?