Article 50

I found the article interesting. People look back at history and it all seems so obvious why things happened. However, at the time, people didn't realise what was happening, eg. The English Civil War, the French Reign of Terror, Nazi Germany, the Middle East Crisis. However, some people were aware what was happening and did try to warn others, but they were dismissed as doom-mongerers.

The catalyst for WW1 happened in Sarajevo, but it wouldn't have led to war, if the conditions hadn't been right. It might not be possible to stop the catalysts, but the conditions can be controlled. I remember watching an interview with Paddy Ashdown (about 2010), when he said that Ukraine was likely to be the touch paper for trouble in Europe. The other people in the discussion almost laughed at him, but I think he was right.

I really hope future historians don't look back at our era and discuss the reasons why some (yet unknown) catastrophe happened.

I do think future historians will look back on this time with horror. We may be an island but we should not be so insular. Anyone who looked around the world last June and saw that the only foreign leaders supporting brexit were Trump, Putin and Marine le Pen, should have asked why. Alarm bells should have rung.

Some people did ask why - and still do. Trump, Putin and Le Pen each has his/her own obvious agenda, but still the bells don't toll loud enough.

I do not agree with Trump on some of his policies especially about Mexicans and the ban on immigration. However he has been elected by the American people so they have almost the same situation we have here. The people have spoken and should be respected.

If you want examples of things that led to worse things think of 'the line in the sand' which Western governments made when dividing up Europe. Or the policies of the Cyprus government before the Turks were forced in to action over the discrimination of the Turkish Cypriots by the pro-Greek government. Think of what is happening now between Israel and Palestine and the building in no-man's land that has been allowed. Just about to blow up again by the looks of things. Think of what happened when the USA dropped chemical bombs over Vietnam in the Vietnam war. The country is still suffering from that decades later. The USA government also distributed drugs to the troops to help them face the horrible things that went on, and now they have a massive drugs problem in America. Our own British government gave out free cigarettes to our troops for the same reason and millions got hooked on them. It has taken 70 years to wean people off them. The list is endless.

I wonder what the consequences will be after Britain allowed the Russian fleet to sail down the English channel on their way to Syria to bomb the opponents of the Government there? You could say we were complicit doing that.

I think one of the characteristics that drove this vote and lurch to the right is one of anger.

It is argued that many feel dismayed by the way they have been ignored. They have identified politicians as the culprits, but I do wonder whether the economic capitalist system, brings with it an inevitability which the politicians are powerless to change and can only mitigate against.

A 'line in the sand' was also drawn in the Middle East; India and in America by Colonel Travis at the battle of Alamo and more recently by President Bush in the Gulf War. Look at what that caused.

Yorkshiregel Those incidents could have been catalysts to further action (some were), which is why we have diplomats and Foreign Offices to try and calm things down.

The point is that catalysts happen in a context of distrust and hatred. Incidents between two powers with friendly relations are usually treated as minor incidents, people apologise and life moves on.

At the moment, it seems that we have some major forces at work (Putin, IS, 'anti-elite', nationalism, etc) heading for collision courses. Sorry, but I really don't trust the 'people' to sort things out. If you studied the Reign of Terror after the Revolution at school or even witnessed a playground brawl before intervention, you'll know what I mean.

True daph but I also think the problem is that "the people" do not have faith in the politicians to improve their lot either, which is why we are getting such extreme results. The extreme are promising deliverance from the results of the non-action of these politicians.

I agree with you, but ultimately, the people choose the politicians in a democracy. They're not going for the boring politicians, who get on with their job in an unassuming and conciliatory way. There are actually quite a few of them, who don't necessarily make a good impression in the media. I think we demonise our judiciary and civil service at our peril. You only have to compare what we have with America.

PS. Trump and some other American presidents have even made me more supportive of our monarchy (and I'm no royalist).

I can't help feeling that one of the problems the US have is that it has a fierce adherence to the principle of non involvement of 'the state' and a belief that people make their own destinies by working hard and being self reliant. This makes it very difficult to introduce social policies which help the poor and disadvantaged as being poor seems to be regarded as the result of some moral deficit in the poor individual (a view which we see to a certain extent here in the UK).

I think that Trump will find it very difficult to circumvent these beliefs. His only chance of doing anything positive would appear to be through the workings of the capitalist system as, I think, any attempt to give state aid would be strongly resisted. He has to somehow persuade industry to invest heavily in deprived areas; how can he do this without offering huge incentives to make it worth their while?

Our US friends might put me right on this?

Sorry but I'm going to swear. If one more person suggests that because I wished to remain in Europe, as a proud English woman with family living in Europe and a GC who was born in another European country, suggests that ...what's that expression you used YG, 'up sticks and move', I will go bloody mad.

I am very proud to be English. I have had a good life, a prosperous life, fulfilled in every way both personally and professionally. However, I have a wider perspective to my life.

I have family in Europe and I wished us all to be European.
I have made my living working in many countries in the world and working with foreign nationals in this country. For the last 10 years I have worked almost exclusively with Europeans. I respect all cultures and peoples with the obvious exception of terrorists. I respect other peoples' lifestyles and religions.

BUT I am English first and last. Please stop assuming because I hold different views from yourself/selves, that I must go and live somewhere else.

You are not more English than I am because you want to exit the EU and I wish to remain.

In any case, I thought I was coming to read about Article 50. Some brilliant speakers both days. Very compelling arguments powerfully delivered.

We'll see what happens, and I await the debate on the Scottish amendment this evening with interest.

Im just going to interrupt your Pity Party Re Trump and mention some good news Re brexit.
Senior politicians within the Belgium government have published an * extroardinary* report calling for Brussels to pursue the continuation of free trade with the uk or face * dire consequences.
They conclude that 1in 4 jobs in the country will be under threat if Eurocrats push ahead with plans to force a so-called 'hard brexit' on Britain.
Not what some of you want to read but we have to put the good stuff out there when we see it.
Back to your Pity Party

There's a plea on the 'Trump Presidency' thread for people to behave more respectfully towards each other. My understanding was that mocking people by using language such as 'Pity Party' was implicit in that plea.

It is indeed good news to read the Belgian government's report.

It's a pity that there are still three more court cases seeking to disrupt our divorce from the EU. Just delaying tactics.

Good to hear the Belgian government. I hope this helps towards strong ties with our European neighbours. It would be brilliant if this happened!

Whitewave It does look promising. Not only are these men politicians but some are retired captains of industry. One of them was once head of Dunlop and Vikers, so they know a thing or two about how things work. We need more people like this speaking out, but it does appear they have a lot of power, fingers crossed.

It would be brilliant if this happened!

So youd be happy if we get what most Brexiters have felt we can only dream of, a reasonable trade deal without free movement?

Well said, Ginny I respect that you are a proud English woman, in spite of, or perhaps because of, your international connections. Your experience of living elsewhere and working with people of different nationalities has helped you to value our relationship with Europe and the wider world.

I am a proud Scot but people like me have been called traitors by the nationalist trolls because, like most Scots, we want to remain British citizens.

It is outrageous that people like you and I who are proud to be part of the EU as well as loving our own country are being told that if we dont accept this crazy destructive brexit we should get out if our own country!

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/01/nigel-farage-among-ukip-meps-accused-of-misusing-eu-funds

This should prove an interesting diversion.
So should this.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/01/paul-nuttall-stoke-byelection-papers-gave-address-he-had-not-moved-into

You have lots of others in agreement gin and var including me.

That's a Farage and Le Pen been accused of falsely using EU funds - horses out of the same stable. Hope they are forced to pay back these funds provided by us.

Marine Le Pen has said she is not paying back the money

I expect that's what Farage will say as well.

Have you seen this as well?

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/01/i-had-a-screw-it-moment-says-mep-who-held-sign-up-behind-nigel-farage

Farage sticking up for Trump in the EU parliament. They must get really sick of the man. They are probably hoping we pass article 50 really early just so they don't need to see him again.