Article 50

Anya
I think thats roughly true of most Brexiters.

I would add the corollary that I think most Brexiters do not want them to just be able to come over here on holiday, secure a job at Tesco say, and then settle here permanently. We want the vast majority of jobs reserved for Britons, and only those which are very hard to fill to be filled by foreigners, and we want to see more Britons trained up for all the shortage roles, especially in the NHS. We should NOT be depending on foreign doctors and nurses coming from inferior universities who are less well trained than our home grown.

Until the government start the negotiations with the EU we will not know what options are on the table.

Far too early for guess work.

That's where you and I part company Mair. I do agree that we need to train up more of our young people in certain areas. But having watched some mightily complicated operations and procedures on programmes like Hospital and 24 hours in A&E I cannot agree that 'foreign' doctors and nurses are less talented. I'm in awe of some of their skills. Some of 'our' best cardiac and paediatric surgeons seem to have trained abroad.

Likewise harvesting crops. In the village I used to live, the farmers relied on European labour, mainly Spanish. The workers arrived in late spring, took up residence in the caravans set aside for them, worked solidly until October then went back home. No problems at all. Only two lads from the village were regularly employed on the farms as the others preferred to be unemployed rather than work in the fields, though a lot of university students (my children amongst them) did add to the labour force during the summer months. Hard, back-breaking work it was, especially if harvesting courgettes which left your hands blistered.

And the same goes for cleanering and catering. Students and 'foreigners' mainly.

Many many European Universities are extremely good and equal to UK ones.

The U.K seems to think that once we have left the EU their well qualified people will still wish to come to UK to work. This may well not be the case. If you read any of the forums which have EU members living in the UK at the moment and happily doing a valuable job many of them are looking at moving somewhere else - not necessarily back to their home country - indeed many of them are married to other EU nationals. Many of these people have been very upset about they way they feel they are no longer wanted by many of the U.K population - some have clearly suffered nasty discriminatory behaviour since the vote.

Some good news to emerge this morning was that McClaren are to bring their engine plant to Sheffield university from Austria. It seems that Sheffield have been developing this facility for 14 years as they are doing a lot of research into the materials they now use for building F1 cars. They have gradually built a wide ranging facility - well done them for having the foresight to do this.

That's where you and I part company Mair. I do agree that we need to train up more of our young people in certain areas. But having watched some mightily complicated operations and procedures on programmes like Hospital and 24 hours in A&E I cannot agree that 'foreign' doctors and nurses are less talented. I'm in awe of some of their skills. Some of 'our' best cardiac and paediatric surgeons seem to have trained abroad.

Of course some are very talented, and some of those you see on TV were trained in Britain!

However it s absolute nonsense to suggest all univerities are equal and that a medical degree from say the Pan African University Nigeria is equivalent to one from Imperial College or Harvard!

Head in sand!

Welshwife There are good stories coming out all the time but 'some' people just don't want to hear them.

Many many European Universities are extremely good and equal to UK ones

Many are but a great many are not. However its medical staff from poor corrupt countries beyond Europe we should be far more concerned about. The checking system to ensure they are up to standard is very flimsy.

Very true petra!

There are good stories coming out all the time
True.
While the bad ones are hushed up.

75% of doctors struck off are foreign.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/9771022/Revealed-3-in-4-of-Britains-danger-doctors-are-trained-abroad.html

I didn't know Nigeria was in the EU. Not sure how Brexit will affect their nationals employment in U.K. Probably have more of them.
I think you ll find medical provision and training in France, Germany and Italy is easily as good as, and in many areas far superior To NHS. A greater % of GDP in those countries is spent on healthcare, whereas ours languishes behind. Some people on here find it hard to admit that there is anything good in European countries.

Do we have figures Mair as to what percentage of the 75% are EU trained doctors?

There are more likely to be increased numbers from African and Indian Universities when the flow from Europe slows down or stops. I would have thought that it was easier to check on qualifications gained in Europe than those in other countries.

susie we've looked at this recently. * mair* has chosen to ignore it. The report we looked at was much less alarmist and much more intelligent by the GMC

Perhaps Mair didn't see it, whitewave. She hasn't been a member for long.

I think you ll find medical provision and training in France, Germany and Italy is easily as good as, and in many areas far superior To NHS

Northern Europe yes, the south a little more dodgy, but you are right that the concerning areas of the world re medical training are those beyond Europe.

Brexit will not make it harder to select EU doctors. We will have control over that.

Oh dear! Mair I've accused you of using extreme examples to back up your thought processes before...And you never fail to disappoint!

Interesting seems even EU doctors are poorer
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/11146680/European-doctors-three-times-more-likely-to-be-struck-off-GMC.html

European doctors are three times more likely to be struck off by the GMC than British-trained doctors, a report has found, as one in three medics working in the UK has trained abroad

Terrifying!
Id bet my bottom dollar though theyre not Scandinavians, German or Dutch!

We need to train our own!

Anya

I have not provided any 'examples' because I realise individual examples prove very little. That is why I have provided statistical facts.

I thought you liked 'facts'? Or is that only when they suit you?

She did ana as she can never fail or resist the urge to talk about immigrants, and commented on it.

can never fail or resist the urge to talk about immigrants

Nor can Bremainers when theyre insisting we 'need immigrants for the NHS'!

I find it puzzling when regularly reading the 'we need immigrants to do the jobs', when in many cases the increased need has only arisen as a result of increased immigration. Iin the case of the NHS, the immigrants are effectively treating the immigrants.
However I do recognise that the skinflint government knows that it is cheaper to import health service workers than to train them here and has encouraged this. We should not be encouraging this practice but should be railing against the poaching of skilled personnel from poorer countries that have shouldered the cost of their training.

Well said JN, especially your second paragraph.

Hear hear Joelsnan

The statistics it seems show that is not the case - the immigrant population are young and healthy and take little from the NHS but give it a lot in the way if skills. Jen I think it was gave links to all this ages ago.