Reluctant to join the discussion.

absent said
You can challenge me any time you like Mair. I have never had the slightest difficulty defending my viewpoint. Moreover, and perhaps more importantly, I have never had the slightest difficulty admitting that I was wrong when someone has convinced me that is the case. By the way, I am invariably polite because that I was how I was raised

That's great absent and reflects my own feelings, but not shared by certain GN posters.

I do enjoy a good political debate but I understand how you feel, morethan, because far too often on Gransnet political threads that is not what one gets. It puts me off posting on them too. Every now and then I charge in, post something and run away again. That's how I cope.

Meanwhile I'm listening to podcasts on Federalist Radio Hour from the US in an effort to understand what the Trump phenomenon is all about. I do not accept that it is a sign that a huge proportion of Americans are bigots or anything else nasty. This mirning the interviewer, Ben Domenech, is talking to Salena Zito on the subject of 2016 voters. It's fascinating to hear her analysis. She reckons "something big" started happening ten years ago in American politics and the Trump election is the result of that. She's a gran so she's bound to be sensible .

Morethan2 Some posters on the political threads have been quite nasty in their rants debates on here.

There have been pairs of posters on these threads who quite frequently end up just having a two handed slanging match. With one or two others popping up to stir the already boiling pot.
They probably know who they are.

Sadly most of any "political debate" on here (let alone the question of how much of it is actually "informed") seems to me to be "Full of sound and fury signifying nothing."

So I for one and I think a number of others just prefer to keep right out of them for those reasons

Well that would appear to put the lid on any discussion about current affairs hmm
Not sure how you so misread my post MawB?

If one is saddened by Brexit or fearful about Trump, clearly Mair thinks one should only share those views with like-minded people.

Or came to this false conclusion. In fact I said there are some posters who appear to want to discuss their views only with like minded and to silence those who disagree with them. I did not imply that is what they should do!

The "boat people" reference just comes across as dismissive
Trying to control the terms of reference to suit their agenda is just one of them, as is provocative use of language to attack posters and pass negative 'moral' judgement on them (eg your use of 'dismissive' in the above context)

Clearly there are many who have strong feelings as it should be but most of us can debate and discuss without sinking to the level of ad hominem attacks or cheap jibes.

Maybe you "can" but as we have just seen above ^ that isnt what certain politically activist GNers tend to do in practice.

I don't see it as a homogeneous group, as many agree on some issues but disagree on others.
(Opinions on Farage and UKIP tend to be fairly universal however wink)
Oh dear stereotyping abounds!
"We" have a variety of views , those "others" who disagree with us are "all the same" eh?

Salena Zito is a good reporter, reporter being the pertinent word. She's not judging people, just listening to them and reporting what they say. Do have a listen of you're interested: thefederalist.com/2017/01/30/podcast-salena-zito-2016-voters-blue-dogs-political-sports-media/

if

I agree with you morethan - the political discussions on GN are difficult to keep up with, and you need to have a thick skin to participate.
I started a political thread a few weeks ago and then wished I hadn't, because you never know who's going to pop up and write something provocative. As it happened, it was ok, but I was a bundle of nerves!

I do write a post every now and then but I just have not the time to sit all day with my lap top on my knee posting on GN.
Some posts are very long and some posters put links from newspapers which are even longer!
The result is that if you don't catch the thread at the beginning the orignal subject has long disappeared.

I check who is writing and when two or three names have filled the whole thread then I leave with nothing written.

thatbags Strange that you mention ' something big started happening'
OH was on FB and a friend had posted a piece from Kurt Cobain ( a now dead musician) he predicted this big change back in the 90s, he even quoted that it could be someone like Donald Trump!

Well, that is exactly why (on the Trump Presidency thread) I threw out a mild sort of challenge for us all to be civil on the political threads.It was always robust but due to several things...Conservatives winning /Brexit/Trump things have got way out of hand.Every other post descended into name calling and insults, often childish but frequently vitriolic.I was the poster who said that centre/right of politics dare hardly comment, and then somebody looked up an old thread from after the last General Election to prove a point that some Conservative voters do comment.There were about 8 on the list,
5 of whom never comment on political threads except that one (which was entitled ' are you still glad you voted Conservative' or something similar.) I am a Lib Dem voter who liked the coalition,and hoped it would continue at the last GE.My comment that centre/ right posters dare hardly comment still holds good.
If adults, especially at our age, can't debate/discuss/comment without all the aggression that has gone on then it's a poor do, and says a lot about any posters who still wish it to continue.No, it doesn't have to be a vicars tea party, but cut out all the
Patronising/knowall/snide/sarcastic/ downright nasty comments and we will see the
Actual political comment/thought/musings and be able to respond to that instead of wasting our lives responding to attacks.
I 'signed up' to my own challenge of being better on the political threads and hoped others would too.I intend to ignore posters who refuse to do it, or, if I think it warrants it, will simply report posts.
I really hope that new posters, or old posters who were inhibited by how things were
Will now post comments on all news/political threads and we can see how it goes?
I only suggested doing things this way because things had got so awful, and the very fact that this thread was started shows that there is an appetite for political threads that all could join in without fear of snide personal remarks.
It will work if Gransnet members want it to work.

Quite agree that if only one or two people are posting constantly then it's not worth bothering about. I'm more interested in real life friends' opinions of what is going on in Westminster and the world. I'm fascinated how much democracy is disliked.

I wasn't being critical about the political threads or the people who post on them. I most certainly didn't mean that there wasn't a place for them on here. Just as there is a place for the estranged thread, the crafting threads,and the book thread. I was just pondering why I would join in on any of those threads but never post on the political thread . I was interested if anyone felt the same and so started a thread about my own conclusions. I have often learnt something on the political threads and even signed some of the petitions following a link and I do find them informative and interesting. Maybe one day I'll be brave enough to put my head above the parapet but for now I'll hunker down and take cover.

Just make a comment on the political threads if you want to morethan and see how it goes, the more the merrier.

morethan

Why not just pop in with your say so on those threads and then run and duck for cover while watching the fallout!

Its a way to dip your toe in the water as it were.

I think it's easier to have these sort of discussions in RL when you can observe body language and so on. It often looks so much more provocative when something is written down and can also be misinterpreted. I follow the political threads as I am interested, but do not always have the background information to support posting so don't often do it. I have learnt a great deal from posters who are often well informed, and not necessarily the ones who share my viewpoint. It is too easy in real life to just mix with those who share our own life beliefs and political views. Before I get shouted down I know that some do have a mixed group of friends who may differ politically.

Political debate will inevitably be robust. I occasionally enter the kitchen, even though it gets a bit hot at times!

I do find it interesting to hear others' views and I do learn a lot from those better versed in politics. Knowledge is power, so I stick with it. I am happy to acknowledge my paucity of knowledge in some areas - it is not a crime!

Semantic pedant alert - Mair I don't follow the logic of your reply to I don't see it as a homogeneous group, as many agree on some issues but disagree on others.
(Opinions on Farage and UKIP tend to be fairly universal however wink)
with
Oh dear stereotyping abounds!
"We" have a variety of views , those "others" who disagree with us are "all the same" eh?

I read it as meaning that many agree with each other on some things but disagree with each other on others. The "we" and "us" are not implied there, nor is their being "other" to any "us" but to each other - ie no single universal agreement on all subjects.

I find that often other points of view are either ridiculed or if pertinent, not commented on!! i e, the fact that certain Arab countries refuse admission of Israelis to their countries, some, refuse passports with an Israeli stamp on them! Other anomalies too are strangely ignored if mentioned! Russia's annexation of Crimea? Is that OK? Think of the shrieks and screams if America decided on grabbing part of Mexico!!! I just find these threads at times so hypocritical with no one willing to discuss the other side of the coin so to speak. That's why a lot of the time I feel unable to join in

Thank you Elegran
It seemed clear to me when I wrote it.

I do read the political threads and occasionally post on them but find that in many cases a word or phrase is jumped on and then discussed ad nauseam until the original point is lost, that isn't informed debate it is merely boring and childish. If you object to a word or phrase, say so, and then move on

The point is though, that you shouldn't feel you need a first from Oxbridge combined with the knowledge of a political hack to simply make a comment.Very few ,if any , have that on here, and quite a lot of comments are lifted from various political publications.Very time consuming,and frankly I prefer to read original thought by posters ( doesn't matter if I agree or not.)However, whether it is lifted material, own thoughts, links etc it should 'never* be the case that posters are worried to dip their toes in the water.Maggiemaybes post that she 'dipped her toes in, was dragged under, chewed and spat out onto the bank' although a funny anology, is also very sad.

I do actually have an issue with the term "boat people" which I remember fro decades ago after (?) the Vietnam war.
If we are talking about refugees from the Syrian war etc why not say so.
It is such a cliché to refer to all refugees or even economic migrants as "boat people". That is why I said it came across as "dismissive."
It was also a fallacious if not irrelevant inclusion to the imagined "faction " of your argument.

So do I MawBroom. I read it and cringed, but declined to comment, as we're supposed to be conciliatory and not jump on people.

Unfortunately, I can't see this truce lasting long. My own resolution is to ignore certain posters.

MawBroom you have done what you accuse others of doing, made a cheap jibe about UKIP and Nigel Farage, how do you know that everyone agrees with you, they might agree with the OP. Ukip did get nearly 4 million votes in the general election.

The heading of this area is 'News and Politics'. It's the only really serious part of GN. I appreciate reading knowledgeable and analytical posts by others. Frankly, I don't want to read dumbed down politics or opinions based on little more than myth or prejudice. Therefore, I would hope that posters have a certain amount of knowledge.