Tony Blair

Niggly, this isn't the thread for this topic but I would like to say the victims of Bloody Sunday were British citizens on a peace march shot by British soldiers

Absolutely, annie. I remember it and was horrified at the time. As more details emerged over time, I was even more horrified.

I grew up thinking that it would never end and that both sides were to blame. Mo Mowlam was a star, but Tony Blair authorised what she did and there would have been no peace without a PM willing to negotiate.

It was admitted by the IRA in the Saville report and later confirmed by Martin Mcguiness that troops were initially fired on during this protest which in turn led to the crowd being fired on, but its a long time ago, and I don't want to argue about the rights and wrongs of his awful episode.

It was filmed niggly , there was no gunfire from the marchers, read the enquiry results

I'm only quoting what Martin Mcguiness later said and this is on record, but who knows, I always keep an open mind over these things as even in those days film could be doctored, not saying it was, but it would have been possible.

No niggly, you said it was in the report and later confirmed by Martin Mcguiness , in the report it does say one soldier giving evidence lied. It was an atrocity and after it the numbers joining the IRA greatly increased . Anyway they are long dead and still no arrests , those who ordered the shooting have got away with it .

But niggly the people who were shot were certainly unarmed. Lets put it like this if your child was in town attending a public meeting and at the same time a bank robber fired a gun would you be happy for the British army to turn up and shoot your child? Because that is what it was, British soldiers shooting unarmed British citizens. It was wrong, admit it, everyone else has.

It's beyond disgraceful that anyone should gainsay the findings of the Savile Report and particularly so in order to make a cheap political point. The day the report was published, DC apologised on behalf of the British Government in what was considered by many a very moving and heartfelt speech. He acknowledged that the paratroopers had fired the first shot, had fired on fleeing unarmed civilians and shot and killed one man who was already wounded. How quickly we rewrite the history that we don't want to admit to.

Well, I for one was glad to hear Blair's speech. Whilst you might not agree with some of his past decisions, he was a powerful politician and leader of the Labour Party. During his terms of office our NHS, education, and social care received sufficient funding. Where was JC then?

As for Iraq, Blair as PM put his case to the Commons and they voted on it. Every single MP who opted for war has the same blood on their hands. As do the Security Services and the army leadership, i.e.superior orders no defence - Nuremberg Doctrine.

Blair has nailed it for me. Sorry Jeremy but he's stolen the speech you should have made! I don't see why continuing to challenge and debate whether we are heading in the right direction, is seen to be so undesirable by some, by whom I mean the population at large.

Well said Ginny,

Blair caused lots of problems with PFI, all of which Corbyn voted against.
He always voted for sufficient funding for social care, education and the NHS, but PFI wasn't the right way.
He voted against tuition fees and the trebling of tuition fees.
Are you saying he was wrong?
He also voted against the Iraq war, as did many Labour MPs. If Blair hadn't lied to the commons about WMD, the vote might not have gone that way.

And if Corbyn hadn't gone into hiding avoiding the Brexit campaign but spoke up with the party the vote might not have gone that way

Has Corbyn ever been out of hiding?
I have never known such an invisible and innefectual leader of the opposition.
We need a Labour party leader with some enthusiasm who will inspire the party. It looks to me as if Corbyn might be chronically depressed.

Whoops! "ineffectual". Can't do double consonants.

He has been seen sitting on a train floor and hiding behind a glass door , and he doesn't want to be harassed by questions

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/18/people-are-dying-at-the-hands-of-austerity-says-jeremy-corbyn

Poor Corbyn, he us putting all his energy into supporting Brexit , well the Guardie is listening to him.

What is he supposed to do, Annie? Not go along with the will of the majority? Is that your idea of democracy?

As for Iraq, Blair as PM put his case to the Commons and they voted on it. - unfortunately his "case" was not based on the truth - bit of a slip-up there.

As to Brexit - Blair can pronounce all he wants (and he may be right in the eyes of many) but he has no credibility and does not enhance any view he might propound.

Jen, he dodged campaigning during the Brexit campaign, he was the first on the news the day after the result to say it must be acted upon quickly. He isn't bothered with democracy, he has always wanted out. He is supporting the result because it's the result he wanted.

So much said on the .iraq war, wonder what it was like for leaders following the twin towers atrocity

As for the enquiry , all papers should have been available , everything Bush said, everything the secret services said .

I have not changed my views on the Iraq war but so many unanswered questions we will never be given answers to

www.politico.eu/article/12-people-who-brought-about-brexit-leave-remain-referendum-campaign-euroskeptics-tension/

Not just Corbyn to blame for Brexit, although some people find it hard to believe.

durhamjen

Doesn't your link to 'politico.eu ' actually prove the point Anniebach and many other posters have said before, Labour and especially Corbyn were weak during the EU Referendum? You have always argued differently so I am confused.

Is your point in raising the link to agree finally that Labour and Corbyn did put in a poor performance and also agree with Tony Blair in his speech to OPEN EUROPE who criticised them too?

Your link is an 'old' one but it says this:-

"Remain lost because Labour voters turned out for Leave. In part, this happened because, while the Labour Party wanted to stay In, its leader obviously wanted to get Out. Focus groups were clear that voters had picked up on Corbyn’s ambivalence towards the EU, and that his pro-Remain speeches sounded more like hostage videos than rallying calls. Of course, it turned out that Labour’s voters were equally skeptical — but thanks to Corbyn’s ambivalence, the party’s Europhile MPs and activists could not persuade them otherwise. The argument that Brexit was a right-wing conspiracy was just waiting to be made. Instead voters got the impression the party was divided, or just didn’t care very much. A special mention here too for the near-invisible Alan Johnson, the leader of campaign group Labour In, whose performance is best described, to use a Trump-ism, as “low-energy.”

In fact your link says this about Boris:-

"Johnson will surely seize the spoils of victory by succeeding David Cameron as prime minister".

We know that didn't work out as per your link. I am not sure what you are trying to prove to be honest.

Annie does not say that Labour put in a weak performance. She specifically criticises Corbyn. My link shows others who were just as bad if not worse.
Alan Johnson was the Labour leader in the remain camp. Why does she not criticise him?

"In fact, all of the survey evidence on how individual voters behaved on June 23 indicates that a clear majority of those who voted Labour in 2015 and who turned out for the referendum backed Remain. According to the largest such survey, based on a panel of over 30,000 voters interviewed on behalf of the British Election Study (BES), no fewer than 71 per cent of 2015 election Labour voters voted for Remain. A poll of 12,000 voters conducted by Lord Ashcroft on polling day put the figure at 63 per cent – somewhat lower but still well over half. A sample of 5,000 also polled on the day published by YouGov put it at 65 per cent."

From an article in the New Statesman.
Three polls showing that between 63 and 71% of Labour voters voted to remain, yet Corbyn gets the flack for losing. Why?
Conservatives must have taken even less notice of their leaders.

By the way, it's an old link because only it only mattered just after the referendum. Those figures and people can't change between then and now. It's just that Annie hasn't given up blaming Corbyn for everything.

Lifted this from mumsnet, and copied it as this summarises my views exactly:

- I'm no great fan of TB either, although I don't have the visceral hatred of him that lots of others seem to! He seems have the rare talent of uniting all sides against him and my first reaction on hearing the speech was 'Oh no, not bloody Blair again!'

However... as an ardent Remainer, I'm genuinely struggling to think of anyone else who could do it. Corbyn's useless and ambivalent about the EU anyway; the Lib Dems have tried, but they can't get the media exposure (and Clegg seems almost as tainted by the coalition/tuition fees as Blair is by Iraq); Remain MPs of all parties (Ken Clarke being an honourable exception) are too terrified of the consequences to do anything meaningful...

I think part of the reason Blair's acting now is precisely because no one else is stepping up. He's immediately recognisable (albeit not in a good way!) and has an automatic media platform and great contacts. He's already hated by so many that he has nothing left to lose popularity-wise (as opposed to MPs who are terrified of losing their seats), and he's old enough, rich enough and thick-skinned enough not to worry too much about the opposition. Who else do we have in the same position? And is there anyone high profile in politics who is genuinely whiter than white and can't be discredited for speaking out?

David Miliband is the only other name who comes to mind, but I doubt he has the appetite for it.