Open Britain - Hard Brexit

So now you're saying Leave voters are all 'unbelievably irresponsible' because they didn't agree with the Remain campaign, MaizieD.

You can go away and sob quietly or bang your head against a brick wall if you wish, but I expect you'll just keep on demanding answers that no one can give you.

But there's going to be £350m a week extra for the NHS and no foreigners in the country.

Yeah, yeah...

I think Ana means we are not going to get that, Suzie.

No Ana Remainers are simply asking what it is that the Leavers think is going to be achieved by leading the EU. Mostly it seems to be "Perhapses"
perhaps we may have better trade deals with other countries
perhaps we may be able to trade with EU countries without attracting too many tariffs and penalties
perhaps we may be able to close the borders and restrict entry(although it's the French who police our main points of entry at present)
perhaps although we are spitting in their faces the other EU countries will still be our friends and nice to us.
My gran had a saying "If 'ifs' and 'ands' were pots and pans there'd be no work for tinkers" Very likely there won't be much work for anyone when we Brexit.

Dominic Cummings admitted in the article you posted dj that the Leave campaign knew that they couldn't a rational argument with facts. They spent millions on focus groups to find out how they could sway people and discovered that immigration and the NHS mattered to people. They approached it like a marketing and advertising campaign. That's why they produced the £350,000 pledge on the red bus and concentrated on slogans like 'Take back control' and Farage produced his poster.

They knew that large sections of the country were angry about their situation, so deliberately pushed the idea that experts didn't know what they were talking about and they turned the anger towards the EU rather than our own government.

According to Cummings, people were influenced by their tactics. Some of their advice came from the same people behind Trump's success.

Cummings appeared before various select committees and could never defend the figures which were quoted and claims being made. As with Trump, people didn't care about facts.

....and perhaps we may be able to run our own affairs, and put our own money where we see fit.

There won't be much money of our own rar much of it will evaporate as financial services shift and the pound drops. Personally I'd rather have a substantial share of EU money than a shrinking pound.

Here are some things we are in danger of losing.

The better news is that Barnier and Juncker are talking in ver reasonable and friend.y terms about how they will conduct the talks and what UK does need to agree to - payments they have already agreed to, also the position of the 4 million people caught up in the mess through no fault of their own.

We already spend at least 98% of 'our money' as we 'see fit'. Our EU budget contribution is 2% of the national budget. The tiny bit we don't directly control brings a huge variety of benefits, tangible and intangible. And taking back control' of that 2% means accepting a mass of costs that we never even knew existed.

No-one can tell us any positive benefits to the individual or the economy of leaving because the Leave campaugn focussed so much on negatives. I stick by 'irresponsible'.

Ginny 42, I am not alarmed about leaving the EU because more countries with poorer economies will join the EU and the UK would have paid more and been able to take out even less than it does now. It would be arrogant to say what will happen after Brexit but it won't lead to the collapse of the UK economy.

Perhaps, gretel you could tell us why it won't lead to the collapse of the UK economy.

Welshwife I'm a remainer but I don't see your point as helpful. One good thing about leaving the EU is that we can decide for ourselves what we want and don't want. There is a much bigger list than yours if EU laws, and they may not all be as desirable as those on your list.
Mazie, again to be fair, while I've little doubt our economy will suffer I can't see any reason to suppose it will collapse!

It is easy to think that the EU just cost us a lot of money whereas it has given us far more in benefits. Coming out of the Nuclear agreement is very worrying for those who may need radiotherapy in a few years - I hope keeping links with that is in the deal.
You may not see it as helpful but at least it is positive as to what will be going - we still don't know what will replace it if we get rid of all these annoying laws etc!!

Gretel, thank you for your reply. However, your response puzzles me. You write...

'It would be arrogant to say what will happen after Brexit but it won't lead to the collapse of the UK economy.'

You clearly have access to crucial information the rest of Britain, including Mrs May and cohort do not. Please cite your source.

It is arrogant to expect us to cling to your prediction that all will be well if we'll just wait and see. Is that how a wise person lives? No contingency plans? Really?

No one has any answers to where this journey is leading us, and that includes David Davies, because it's an unknown destination and I for one, am unhappy about taking a huge gamble with peoples' lives and livelihoods with no contingency plan.

Anyone feeling confident about Brexit should read this article from the Financial Times. It scared me and I'm already sceptical about our Brexit negotiators.

It is behind a paywall Anno.

No Ginny42, I don't have access to crucial information regarding leaving the EU but neither do the remainers ( some of whom have mentioned 'the collapse of the UK economy'on this thread.) Why are the remainers' views any more valid than those of the leavers especially as the referendum resulted in a leave vote.

A good point gretel and one which I had been pondering on.The short answer is that they are speculating, which we all are at this stage.
Why should we on GN have all the answers, that is what the politicians are for.

You may feel glad we are leaving the EU, and you may feel miffed/ upset, but either way, nobody as yet knows the terms on which we are leaving, because ( not because Davis et al are 'clueless') but negotiations have not even begun yet, and won't do for a little while.

The Remainers have been reading experts' commentary on the likely effect of Brexit on the economy. People like Richard North who has been anti the EU ever since we joined and has written books on the subject and whose blog had been linked on these threads a number of times. He's not at all confident.

The point of experts is that they are basing their predictions on a thorough study of their subject, not airing their hopes and wishes.

If Leavers want to ignore them they are welcome to live with their blissful state of unknowingness but do stop telling us that it's all speculation. It isn't.

As rosesarered says - nobody knows the terms because negotiations haven't even begun.
So, MaizieD, we are all "in a state of unknowingness" - but as a glass half-full sort of person I prefer to look for the positives - opportunities rather than problems - sunlight rather than doom & gloom - blissful

roses You will probably have see that some time ago I was accused of schadenfreude. I've just realised that the only time I expireince this is when I'm reading threads relating to brexit

I meant to add: carry on, I'm enjoying it.